Religion in Strongman

[WesleyInman]

I don't intend for anyone to debate religious beliefs, whats the right and wrong religion,I hope everyone can be open to "to each his own" but instead I wonder how many of you use spirituality or religion in your day to day trainings?? I remember Jesse was really big on this, and in reading alot of threads, I can't help notice that alot of strongman in particular quote the Bible, or discuss alot of good morals, and virtues consistent with their religious beliefs/spirituality...Ive seen people discuss meditation, praying, etc, etc, etc....

I for one think it is awesome, no other sport have I seen this widely accepted, and to me it truly says alot about the athletes...

What type of impact does this make on you guys, and do you really think it has that much to do with your success, focus, and abilities in this field, or is it all secondary??

[benjamin d. moore]

For me, religion and my family come before anything Strongman. It does help keep me focused. Good topic, though!

[dave barron]

I'm not particularly religious, but i know that faith and belief in a higher power can do amazing things. I remember hearing an interview with Michael Chang after he won a grueling match and he said he kept saying "the lord is my strength, the lord is my strength' like a mantra and it pulled him through. I've actually used that in some of my competitions. I wonder if that's, like, blasphemy?
Jono?

[CharlesDMickey]

Strongman brings in a certain type of person. I think many of us do have strong moral values. The hard work it takes to compete in SM is a testament to more than a few strong moral values.

I've been working on my own spirituality the last few years. I think it is helping me to keep going despite injuries, challenges of job/life, age, whatever.

I envy those with really strong faith. I hope to have it myself one day. Just a few years ago I would have categorized myself as an agnostic.


Jay is a minister and I believe his church is his gym.

[Jonathan Creason]

The way I see it is I need to put God first in everything in my life. Family comes in second and then everything else sorts itself out. I love training and competing, but I don't want my life to be defined by that. I do incorporate my faith into my training and competitions though. I always say a prayer before a workout, and when I know my next set or event is going to be tough I ask the Lord for strength.

[Jay Hagadorn]

Wes-

There have been many greats in strongman and professional sports in general that are/were Christian:
Bill Kazmier
Phillip Pfister
Jon Pall
Paul Anderson
Jesse Marunde (and most of his crew/family)
and many current pros/ams etc...
I know that having faith in God helps me in everything that I do. Without Jesus I would be a train reck. Yes God does help me focus on my workouts and lift more, not to mention keep me on track in my life every day...

[Mike Stewart]

The one thing I've seen in strongman is there's no hesitation with what religion/faith you are, which is a good thing. Myself being christian I don't see a "connection" between somebody being christian and a strongman. If you're christian and you're following God's will for you and you want to do something then the proper thing would be to pray about it and if that's what God wants for you it'll happen. God has blessed me in many, many ways, but I haven't been able to compete yet. If He wants me to do that it'll work out, if not oh well. I'll always train for strongman and follow the sport because I absolutely love it!

[Kurt Hessenbruch]

Were you also interested in seeing if there are any competitors who are not religious?

[Steve Krivoshik]

I'm not as religious as I should be, but Mickey brings up a good point about the type of people that SM attracts. It just isn't the same with some other sports.

[Matthew White]

I am not a man of religion, but I will say that having faith of some kind does seem to help motivate people to move that extra bit of weight or get that last rep, it seems to be when you know there's someone there who's always got your back it allows you to go all out.

[Jonathan Macfarlane]

I'm not particularly religious, but i know that faith and belief in a higher power can do amazing things. I remember hearing an interview with Michael Chang after he won a grueling match and he said he kept saying "the lord is my strength, the lord is my strength' like a mantra and it pulled him through. I've actually used that in some of my competitions. I wonder if that's, like, blasphemy?
Jono?


Dave, I'm not going to beat about the bush on this. I know very little of your personal faith so I'll just say what I know. If the God of the Bible is to be believed, if you say things like, "the Lord is my strength," and you're not a true believer who has repented of sin and trusted in Jesus Christ; saying that will only increase your condemnation. Then yes, that would be considered blasphemy. It would without a doubt leave one 'without excuse' before God. It would be akin to taking the bread and wine of communion in rememberance of Christ, without actually having Him as ones saviour.

This would not be a problem if one was a believer. I'm sure many would disagree with me, but Jesus and the apostle Paul speak often of instances like these.

I'm actually preaching tonight on the differences between true Christianity and Religion, taken from the story of the Prostitute (the womans most likely profession) and the Pharisee in Luke 7:36-50. Hopefully filiming it and posting it on youtube at some point.

I'd like to make a plea to those who consider themselves of having a Christian faith. Please do not go to church, pray or read the Bible because it's the right thing to do. Do so because to you, Christ is worth it.

[dcarroll]

Wesley, I read the post above and for the most part I agree with what was said. I came to Christ while in the Corps in 81', like the parrable of the four soils I fell away quickly, and didn't fully committ myself to the Lord till 96'. I would and am willing to talk about Christ anytime or place if it is appropriate. As far as my faith helping my lifting, I think that is a fine line. We must remember Who we are praying to and asking of. For myself, I may pray for wisdom and common sense in regards to how hard I will push. To think that God is just some genie handing out wishes to anyone who ask, I think is foolish. Remember, He searches the heart, and that is what we must keep in mind when we ask in His Name. Doug

[davebeers]

Wesley, I read the post above and for the most part I agree with what was said. I came to Christ while in the Corps in 81', like the parrable of the four soils I fell away quickly, and didn't fully committ myself to the Lord till 96'. I would and am willing to talk about Christ anytime or place if it is appropriate. As far as my faith helping my lifting, I think that is a fine line. We must remember Who we are praying to and asking of. For myself, I may pray for wisdom and common sense in regards to how hard I will push. To think that God is just some genie handing out wishes to anyone who ask, I think is foolish. Remember, He searches the heart, and that is what we must keep in mind when we ask in His Name. Doug
i was thinking along the same lines. I feel using His name in vain is one of the most broken commandments and includes using His name when it is inappropriate or selfishly used.
I haven't yet found a way to mix training and faith. I feel they almost contradict each other since my training is very selfish for the most part. Training or competing doesn't furthur His kingdom 99% of the time.
If you do profess to be a "believer", you better freaking walk the walk as well. Its is the biggest turn-off to hear someone talking about their faith and then dropping f-bombs 5 minutes later.

[Steve Ryan]

Because everyone knows G-d said "dont say the f word or else!" :LOL:

[Charles Bean]

At the risk of being totally ostracized: I'm an atheist. I had a loving upbringing, centered around the church for the most part, and always had strong faith. My father is actually a pastor for the United Methodist Church. Events in my life around three years ago led me to start questioning that faith, and led to the eventual disintegration of a belief in anything other than myself.

[Ryan Brown]

i was thinking along the same lines. I feel using His name in vain is one of the most broken commandments and includes using His name when it is inappropriate or selfishly used.
I haven't yet found a way to mix training and faith. I feel they almost contradict each other since my training is very selfish for the most part. Training or competing doesn't furthur His kingdom 99% of the time.
If you do profess to be a "believer", you better freaking walk the walk as well. Its is the biggest turn-off to hear someone talking about their faith and then dropping f-bombs 5 minutes later.

I tend to agree Dave to an extent. I think if you are a Christian you are a Christian 24/7 and you are always trying to live in a way that is consistent with that choice. Sometimes/often of course people do not meet the challenge. So when I train I do not see it as not being mixed with my faith because everything I do is or at least should be mixed with my faith. At all times I am either living like Jesus would have me live or I am not.

I do not pray for specific lifts, etc. because I generally do not think God really cares about how much I can deadlift or how many strongman contests I win. However, provided I keep my training and my time spent on strongman in perspective then I think it can be done in a way that is pleasing to God, or at least not displeasing to him. I think God wants us to enjoy our lives while on this earth. I think to a limited extent you can be a good example through strongman and maybe even influence your training partners or fellow competitors consider becoming a Christian.

1 Tim 4:8 says "for bodily exercise is profitable for a little; but godliness is profitable for all things, having promise of the life which now is, and of that which is to come."

That is the tough part--to realize that our spiritual training is much more valuable than our physical training. So far, I've probably put more focus on physical training unfortunately.

[Josh Kamins]

I'm a dirty Jew, though I am more Jewish in culture than faith. Science could almost be considered my religion these days...

[AaRoNSnider]

If you do profess to be a "believer", you better freaking walk the walk as well. Its is the biggest turn-off to hear someone talking about their faith and then dropping f-bombs 5 minutes later.

You are absolutely right Dave.A while back a friend and I had some trouble with a bunch of teens whos familys had big names in that church.We quickly found out what hypocrites they all were.Thinking of our situation is always a reminder that our faith is supposed to be in God..not people.

[Josh Kamins]

If you do profess to be a "believer", you better freaking walk the walk as well. Its is the biggest turn-off to hear someone talking about their faith and then dropping f-bombs 5 minutes later.

I'm in no way Christian, but I don't see how language affects your morality or faith in a higher power...

[Jonathan Creason]

You guys make some good points, and I think I should clarify a bit. I don't ask God to help me make a lift. I do ask for health and safety, the strength of mind and spirit to carry on and the ability to use the gifts He has blessed me with for His glory.

[Paul Neuhaus]

Dave, I'm not going to beat about the bush on this. I know very little of your personal faith so I'll just say what I know. If the God of the Bible is to be believed, if you say things like, "the Lord is my strength," and you're not a true believer who has repented of sin and trusted in Jesus Christ; saying that will only increase your condemnation. Then yes, that would be considered blasphemy. It would without a doubt leave one 'without excuse' before God. It would be akin to taking the bread and wine of communion in rememberance of Christ, without actually having Him as ones saviour.

This would not be a problem if one was a believer. I'm sure many would disagree with me, but Jesus and the apostle Paul speak often of instances like these.
I'm actually preaching tonight on the differences between true Christianity and Religion, taken from the story of the Prostitute (the womans most likely profession) and the Pharisee in Luke 7:36-50. Hopefully filiming it and posting it on youtube at some point.

I'd like to make a plea to those who consider themselves of having a Christian faith. Please do not go to church, pray or read the Bible because it's the right thing to do. Do so because to you, Christ is worth it.
I agree with you 100%.

You guys make some good points, and I think I should clarify a bit. I don't ask God to help me make a lift. I do ask for health and safety, the strength of mind and spirit to carry on and the ability to use the gifts He has blessed me with for His glory.
Ditto

[CharlesDMickey]

I dont know crap really, like I said I'm "working on it".

However I do think there is someting in the scripture about foul language..... I think.

I'll ask Marilyn.

[Kalle Beck]

I'm a dirty Jew, though I am more Jewish in culture than faith. Science could almost be considered my religion these days...

haha we are like long lost brothers Josh!

[Ian Duggan]

I dont know crap really...

However I do think there is someting in the scripture about foul language...
Uhhhh... there's a certain humour in your post...

:D

I'm an atheist as well, just if anybody's counting. So I can swear all I want.

Woo!

[DaneGarreau]

However I do think there is someting in the scripture about foul language..... I think.



There are some very ambiguous verses in the bible, none of them concrete in truth, IMO.

Anyone who has lived should realize that language is inadequite, not only because it constantly evolves but also because words don't convey the message properly the majority of the time.

When it comes to foul language I think common sense should direct you to the right path....saying S@#t when you drop something on your foot is merely a way to strongly express the feeling of pain, no different than saying poop. However, calling someone a Sh%% Face is degrading, and IMO, not a nice thing.

[Josh Kamins]

When it comes to foul language I think common sense should direct you to the right path....saying S@#t when you drop something on your foot is merely a way to strongly express the feeling of pain, no different than saying poop. However, calling someone a Sh%% Face is degrading, and IMO, not a nice thing.

True, but calling someone a poopyface is insulting, as long as it isn't hilarious...

[Matt Brouse]

Profanity? I might be screwed.

I do like Corinthians 11-14

"Doth not even nature itself teach you, that, if a man have long hair, it is a shame unto him?"

Dang hippies...

[Scott Markowitz]

I think Dane has the right idea on the whole language thing. What we're supposed to control is our thoughts/reactions/emotions. I recall riding with a guy (the guy who, incidentally, introduced me to Jesus and whom I still have a lot of respect for in this area, the shortcomings discussed here notwithstanding) who was very conscientious to "follow all the rules" - he never cusses, drinks, thinks it's a sin for guys to have long hair or girls to have short hair, etc. However, in traffic he regularly gets stressed out and shouts "boogers!" "snot!" and other such "non-curse words" at other drivers while banging his fists on the wheel. I can't cite you book chapter and verse, but I understand the Bible to say that you're supposed to be able to roll with the punches and not get bent out of shape and smack the car and shout, regardless of the words you use. As far as using one word or another, it goes to the intent of the utterer - for example, the German word for thick consists of the same four letters as a certain male appendage (which rhymes with thick). I can't imagine that, assuming we "get in trouble" for language, that Germans would be in the same situation in this regard for talking about the length of a book they just read as would an American talking about the length of his appendage.
That said, there are some words I just can't imagine a "pure" reason to use, especially in a public context. (Not that I am always, or even all that often, able to remove them from my vocabulary. I make no claims about my own practices.)
As far as the original purpose of this thread, I don't think there's anything inherent in strongman that attracts or repels good or religious people. That's just a fortuitous circumstance. It may well be that the presence of so many who are good and/or religious people plays a role in attracting others, but not the sport itself.

[Barney Shannon]

I'm not a competitive strongman (only the father of one) but I use my faith for everything in life including training.

[Matt Brouse]

I'm not a competitive strongman (only the father of one)
Just as important, more than likely.

[Ryan Brown]

I think Dane has the right idea on the whole language thing. What we're supposed to control is our thoughts/reactions/emotions. I recall riding with a guy (the guy who, incidentally, introduced me to Jesus and whom I still have a lot of respect for in this area, the shortcomings discussed here notwithstanding) who was very conscientious to "follow all the rules" - he never cusses, drinks, thinks it's a sin for guys to have long hair or girls to have short hair, etc. However, in traffic he regularly gets stressed out and shouts "boogers!" "snot!" and other such "non-curse words" at other drivers while banging his fists on the wheel. I can't cite you book chapter and verse, but I understand the Bible to say that you're supposed to be able to roll with the punches and not get bent out of shape and smack the car and shout, regardless of the words you use. As far as using one word or another, it goes to the intent of the utterer - for example, the German word for thick consists of the same four letters as a certain male appendage (which rhymes with thick). I can't imagine that, assuming we "get in trouble" for language, that Germans would be in the same situation in this regard for talking about the length of a book they just read as would an American talking about the length of his appendage.
That said, there are some words I just can't imagine a "pure" reason to use, especially in a public context. (Not that I am always, or even all that often, able to remove them from my vocabulary. I make no claims about my own practices.)
As far as the original purpose of this thread, I don't think there's anything inherent in strongman that attracts or repels good or religious people. That's just a fortuitous circumstance. It may well be that the presence of so many who are good and/or religious people plays a role in attracting others, but not the sport itself.

James 1:26 says "if any man thinks himself to be religious, but does not bridle his tongue, he deceives his heart and his religion is in vain."

I think this would include foul language, lying, etc. I think Christians are called to be Christ-like and to be holy. I can't see how someone attempting to be holy would find it appropriate to drop the F-bomb or other curse words. Let's put it this way--I can't see Jesus talking like that or using the equivalent of whatever those words were in his language in his time.

I also agree that Christians should be able to handle their anger. So getting angry and yelling boogers is likely also not ideal.

[Scott Markowitz]

I agree Ryan, but I think that choice of words not exactly the same thing as controlling your tongue. It seems to me that getting mad and shouting innocuous words is just as bad as getting mad and shouting a curse word, and probably worse than casual use of a curse word.

For example, let's consider the 3-letter word for "buttocks" ;) . (I got in trouble a while back for using this word here, but I'll risk getting in trouble again to make a point.) If we use it to refer to a donkey, then we've not done anything Jesus didn't do (well, I guess nothing the King James-era translators didn't do is a more accurate statement). If we say someone is acting like an ass You missed one!! Ha ha! :B: , we say they are being stubborn/stupid/whatever other behavior we associate with donkeys. If we say someone has a nice 3-letter word for "buttocks" ;) , or is a pain in the 3-letter word for "buttocks" ;) , we're talking about a different concept altogether. It's all about the meaning, not the word itself.

There are also certain private situations in which some words (including the big F) are appropriate. I won't get into them here, but let's just say I can imagine one involving a man and a woman married to each other.

[Paul_Koskinen]

I'm not religious in any way shape or form. At the same time I've always believed that everyone has the right to practice their faith without opression. There a a rare few out there (not here) who could learn from this and stop pissing in the pool next door.
The only thing that gets to me are those who observe their religion on a given day and spend the rest of the week trying to screw over and manipulate their fellow man. Those people are using their faith strictly to advance their own agenda.

[MalachiMcMullen]

Alright, I'm not religious and I don't care who is. I have very specific views on religion though, I wouldn't necessarily call myself an atheist or agnostic either. It would take to long to explain it and no one would read it anyway:D

Man has control of himself, it honestly makes me angry when I see someone attribute something spectacular to god or gods. A friend I train with occasionally(pretty much even in strength) is a born again christian, everytime he gets a new PR he yells out "chalk another up for god!!!", he seems to think that without god he would not be able to Deadlift, squat, bench or do anything he likes because god allows him to get his PR and enjoy life. I'm very sorry if this is offensive to anyone, I'm pretty abrasive and on the topic of religion I'm a disc grinder so if you are offended please remember I'm not trying to bash religion or bring in a debate. I used to tell him "god didn't give you that 355 DL, you worked for it and pushed yourself towards it and you deserve the credit". People like that anger me not because they're religious, not for any reason other than they take the saying "god helps those who help themselves" to an extreme by thinking that no matter what they do they will only be as good, as strong or as happy as god will let them be. Again, I'm not trying to bring in debate or offend anyone, just my view.

[ADAMBAUER]

The verses that get me through the day are

"My dear brothers, take note of this: Everyone should be quick to listen, slow to speak and slow to become angry," James 1:19 Helped me with my temper and anger issues.

"I can do all things through Christ who strengthens me. " Phl. 4:13

I respect all peoples beliefs even if they dont agree with mine, I feel that by shunning those who disagree with our beliefs we are only casting ourselves and our faith in a negative light. There are plenty of folks out there that do that already. I try not to be one of them. (not always sucessfully).

[HunterHenzler]

Let me start off by asaying- I'm not a devoutly religous person, I'm not perfect, I fsin quite often honestly,I don't even attend Mass... but I do believe strongly that God is the 1st person in charge of everything that happens, and that it is all for a cause.

Personally, I always make the sign of the cross (Yes, Catholic) before I get under the squat bar, and before DL too.

Just a habit I picked up much like you will see baseball players do, and just a reminder that I can't do it without Him


My main belief is also that anyone can think whatever they so wish to think, they don't have to believe in Christ, or God, or Buddha, or Allah. Whoever you do (or don't) believe in, is none of my business honestly...
But don't try and disrespect or putdown my beliefs because you do not like htem
That is why it is called 'Faith'


That's just my $.02

[Ryan Rhodes]

As sure as I know that there is indeed a higher power, I also know that faith is nothing less than the surrendering of logic and reason. I know that I was empowered by some nondescript higher power to dictate all aspects of my life and trancend adversity using my unique gifts and resources alone. I share faith and doubt equally throughout my conscious world, but it ends there. I refuse to allow myself to believe that there is my God is somewhere expecting me to dote on him, worship him and constantly pester him with all the wholly insignificant drama of my life on a daily basis. I connect with my inner peace by keeping everything outside of it real and I find a satisfying personal equilibrium in doing so. I have an unwavering faith in logic. Anything contrary to it irrevocably sterilizes all states of being, reality etc.

[Patrick Nehoda]

James 1:26 says "if any man thinks himself to be religious, but does not bridle his tongue, he deceives his heart and his religion is in vain."

I think this would include foul language, lying, etc. I think Christians are called to be Christ-like and to be holy. I can't see how someone attempting to be holy would find it appropriate to drop the F-bomb or other curse words. Let's put it this way--I can't see Jesus talking like that or using the equivalent of whatever those words were in his language in his time.

I also agree that Christians should be able to handle their anger. So getting angry and yelling boogers is likely also not ideal.


BUt even Jesus got angry, look at what he did to the temple right before he was arrested. I know it was because of what they were doing in and around church grounds, but it is still anger. And flipping tables and shouting up a storm is more than I have ever done in public.

Born and raised christian. I try to live my life the best way possible day to day. I try to make this world a better place for the next guy in line and help others. I drink occasionally, date women (always treat them right and with respect), cuss when I am angry, and ask for strength from myself when I need the boost by thinking of others who have done before me. I believe that God will be the one to determine judgement on my soul when the time comes. That is what i believe, and unless we can talk face to face with God our own belief is all we have.

[Jonathan Macfarlane]

I'd like to post a video regarding the seldom talked about topic of Regeneration of Christians. This went out the door when pastors decided the best thing one can do is have a big church, therefore they made it as easy as possible to be become a Christian through a variety of ways, unfortunately this completely neglects the power of the true good news of Jesus Christ. I beleive this video clip by 'man's man', Mark Driscoll captures best the idea that Christians are to act in a more Christ-like manner because their desires have been changed.

Have a watch for at least the first few minutes.

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[IdrisH.]

My main belief is also that anyone can think whatever they so wish to think, they don't have to believe in Christ, or God, or Buddha, or Allah. Whoever you do (or don't) believe in, is none of my business honestly...


Just to let you know, Allah is arabic for God. It is not a different God.

[Scott Markowitz]

Just to let you know, Allah is arabic for God. It is not a different God.

Some would disagree, but this isn't the place for that discussion.

[Jonathan Macfarlane]

Some would disagree, but this isn't the place for that discussion.

Right. My copy of the Koran unfortunatley was given away a couple of weeks ago, but the Koran makes it quite clear that the Christian God and Allah are two different beings. The God of the Bible is a Trinity, Father, Son and Holy Spirit, not a single being. Even YAHWEH as worshipped by the Jews cannot be considered the same as Allah. It seems however that many Christians seem intent on saying they are the same gods, something no Koran-reading Muslim would readily agree with.

edit: For a Christian to say that Jesus is not God, would be to go against 2000 years of church history, also known as the heresy of Modalism. When you get to the bottom of the subject, if Jesus is not God (as in Mormonism, Islam, Jehovah's witnesses etc) then there really is no forgiveness of sin in the eyes of the biblical God. However if you don't think man has a sin problem, that changes things considerably.


This however is not a suitable debate for this forum, but I guess it could be taken to email or PMs. I'd prefer not though.

O People of the Book! Commit no excesses in your religion: Nor say of Allah aught but the truth. Christ Jesus the son of Mary was (no more than) a messenger of Allah, and His Word, which He bestowed on Mary, and a spirit proceeding from Him: so believe in Allah and His messengers. Say not "Trinity": desist: it will be better for you: for Allah is one Allah: Glory be to Him: (far exalted is He) above having a son. To Him belong all things in the heavens and on earth. And enough is Allah as a Disposer of affairs. Surah 4:171

[Dana clipper]

I would like to commend all that are involved in the subject. It has stayed civile. That is the best part. I see people that just cannot understand why you do not think or believe what they do. This IMO is not what God would want.

Here are me thoughts on this. God has other things to do than help me lift. If I get a pr or not is not for him to worry about. He has some much bigger things he is working on. I also believe God is all knowing. He will know if you are doing your best, to be the best person you can in your day to day life.

[Scott Markowitz]

I would like to commend all that are involved in the subject. It has stayed civile. That is the best part.

That's what we do best....most of the time. :D

[Jay Hagadorn]

This thread has been amazingly civil...
Some of you have sent me PM's about this. I figured I would post this up for clarification.
Out of the abundance of your heart, your mouth speaks. Where your heart is is where you lay your treasures up. What do you spend most of your time talking about? Is it "strongman", "sex", "work", "football", "sports", "cars", "having your PHd", etc...whatever it is, this is your god. It may even be yourself. Everyone has something that they "worship".
The thing is, all these will let you down. Where there is logic, it fails in an illogical world. How many times have you let yourself down? Cars break down. Money disappears. Sex is short lived. Sports teams fail us. And yes, competing in strongman doesn't last forever.
So how does God help me stay "focused" in general? Through His loving kindness.
He has shown me He will never let me down, nor leave me, nor forsake me. Here are some things God has shown me:

You may not know me, but I know everything about you. Psalm 139:1
I know when you sit down and when you rise up. Psalm 139:2
I am familiar with all your ways. Psalm 139:3
Even the very hairs on your head are numbered. Matthew 10:29-31
For you were made in my image. Genesis 1:27
In me you live and move and have your being. Acts 17:28
For you are my offspring. Acts 17:28
I knew you even before you were conceived. Jeremiah 1:4-5
I chose you when I planned creation. Ephesians 1:11-12
You were not a mistake, for all your days are written in my book.
Psalm 139:15-16
I determined the exact time of your birth and where you would live.
Acts 17:26
You are fearfully and wonderfully made. Psalm 139:14
I knit you together in your mother's womb. Psalm 139:13
And brought you forth on the day you were born. Psalm 71:6
I have been misrepresented by those who don't know me. John 8:41-44
I am not distant and angry, but am the complete expression of love.
1 John 4:16
And it is my desire to lavish my love on you. 1 John 3:1
Simply because you are my child and I am your Father. 1 John 3:1
I offer you more than your earthly father ever could. Matthew 7:11
For I am the perfect father. Matthew 5:48
Every good gift that you receive comes from my hand. James 1:17
For I am your provider and I meet all your needs. Matthew 6:31-33
My plan for your future has always been filled with hope. Jeremiah 29:11
Because I love you with an everlasting love. Jeremiah 31:3
My thoughts toward you are countless as the sand on the seashore.
Psalms 139:17-18
And I rejoice over you with singing. Zephaniah 3:17
I will never stop doing good to you. Jeremiah 32:40
For you are my treasured possession. Exodus 19:5
I desire to establish you with all my heart and all my soul. Jeremiah 32:41
And I want to show you great and marvelous things. Jeremiah 33:3
If you seek me with all your heart, you will find me. Deuteronomy 4:29
Delight in me and I will give you the desires of your heart. Psalm 37:4
For it is I who gave you those desires. Philippians 2:13
I am able to do more for you than you could possibly imagine. Ephesians 3:20
For I am your greatest encourager. 2 Thessalonians 2:16-17
I am also the Father who comforts you in all your troubles. 2 Corinthians 1:3-4
When you are brokenhearted, I am close to you. Psalm 34:18
As a shepherd carries a lamb, I have carried you close to my heart.
Isaiah 40:11
One day I will wipe away every tear from your eyes. Revelation 21:3-4
And I'll take away all the pain you have suffered on this earth.
Revelation 21:3-4
I am your Father, and I love you even as I love my son, Jesus. John 17:23
For in Jesus, my love for you is revealed. John 17:26
He is the exact representation of my being. Hebrews 1:3
He came to demonstrate that I am for you, not against you. Romans 8:31
And to tell you that I am not counting your sins. 2 Corinthians 5:18-19
Jesus died so that you and I could be reconciled. 2 Corinthians 5:18-19
His death was the ultimate expression of my love for you. 1 John 4:10
I gave up everything I loved that I might gain your love. Romans 8:31-32
If you receive the gift of my son Jesus, you receive me. 1 John 2:23
And nothing will ever separate you from my love again. Romans 8:38-39
Come home and I'll throw the biggest party heaven has ever seen. Luke 15:7
I have always been Father, and will always be Father. Ephesians 3:14-15
My question is…Will you be my child? John 1:12-13
I am waiting for you...Luke 15:11-32

[Kellee_Rassau]

I have been a Christian since I was 16, I'm 36 now. I have been deeply unhappy and made bad decisions in my life, and stumbled in my faith. But when I was ready to accept Christ again into my life at age 27, I cleaned up my act, met my husband, and found my way back to sports and a healthy lifestyle. I began surrounding myself with positive influences, and standing up for myself. I did things people thought were crazy, but I wasn't afraid, because I knew if I put my faith in the Lord, everything would be ok. And it is. I don't pray when I lift, but I pray every day before I go to sleep. I do say bad words, but at least I'm trying to stop doing that, as opposed to the past when I didn't care. I think strength athletes often have a strong spiritual life because the things we do and challenge ourselves to do are outrageously hard. Loading a 500 or 600 lb stone? Not long ago that was considered impossible. It will happen soon. People are now benching, squatting and pulling over 1000 lbs.. That is mind-blowing. Without a strong mind and soul in a strong body, I can't imagine how anyone could do strongman/woman events. I know I couldn't do it.

[anton axelsson]

i must admit that im not religious at all i kinda lost my faith in god, or who ever is watching over us.. people have there own believes and that is good for everyone to have but i must say,and hope nobody gets offended but its me and only me putting in the hard work to obtain good lifts and strength to do what we all do ,what gets me going every day and makes me stronger and who i am is my wife and my kids and their love and support NOT GOD....

[Josh Kamins]

Without a strong mind and soul in a strong body, I can't imagine how anyone could do strongman/woman events. I know I couldn't do it.

This implies that religion or a belief in a higher power is necessary to have a strong mind and soul, which I have to strongly disagree with.

[Kurt Hessenbruch]

I have an unwavering faith in logic. Anything contrary to it irrevocably sterilizes all states of being, reality etc.

I'm right on board with that statement. I was at first very hesitant to say anything in this thread at the risk of being grouped into an unwelcome minority, but it seems there is a bit of open-mindedness here.

Personally, I cannot accept anything on blind faith. I like science and explanations. I attended twelve years of Catholic school and grew up as a "Christian" because that is what I was taught from an early age. As I grew older, I began to have some doubts, but I still believed in a Christian god. Looking back, I realize that my waivering faith was merely an act meant to help conquer my fear of the unknown. I wasn't at all comfortable with the idea that we may just turn to dirt when we die, so I forced some semblance of faith upon myself, despite my doubts.

It wasn't until three or four years ago that I finally began to think of myself as an atheist of sorts. Quite honestly, it was a very liberating acknowledgement, as I no longer felt bound to a single system of beliefs. The bottom line -- I don't know anything and I'm perfectly OK with this. I'm unable to have a god and say that he/she is the almighty power when so many people across the world will feel that a different god... their god... is the real one.

If I had continued to go on as a Catholic, I couldn't possibly have been confident that I was worshipping the correct god and subscribing to the proper scriptures when I know, without a doubt, that if I'd been born in Iran or India, I would have been raised under and practicing an entirely different religion. Taking it a step further, I don't feel I have any greater importance in the grand scheme of things than any other animal. My dog, Rudy, and I both breathe the same air and drink the same water. He's more loving than many humans I meet, so why should I presume that I have a soul and he does not. Because he can't speak to me?

This is not meant to say that I believe in nothing. I just don't know what there is, if anything, and I never will know, and so I'm content with living in my tangible world. If I die and find myself at the pearly gates of heaven, I will be delighted and say, "huh... well, what do you know?" ...but I need to see to believe.

I'm sure some would argue that if, indeed, there is a definite higher power, an afterlife, etc., then I will not be priveleged enough to partake since I didn't have faith while living. I am not worried about this, however. I have come across many god fearing people who would otherwise be deemed as scumbags. They'll cheat, lie and steal, but their weekly attendance at church and their full-hearted belief in a god will be their salvation. Meanwhile I'll continue to go about my life of not knowing, but at the same time, I will love my wife and my children with everything I have, give my full devotion to friends, and treat strangers with kindness and respect. Somehow, I think I'll be alright.

[Jay Hagadorn]

Personally, I cannot accept anything on blind faith.

Take your blinders off and look at your avatar!!! That is proof that God has indeed blessed you and is watching out for you! Your daughter was not a mistake and is not floating aimlessly in an aimless universe, nor are you or your family. She, you and your family have a purpose.
Count your blessings in the things you would not take money for, not the things you would.
Good looking family!

[WesleyInman]

Without a strong mind and soul in a strong body, I can't imagine how anyone could do strongman/woman events.


WOW!! This thread turned out with better responses than I would have EVER expected, you guys are really amazing!!! I respect all of your ways of thinking!! I do think Kellee summed it up with this response, and I think for many people spirituality is a way to develop a strong mind and soul.


I truly started thinking about this topic when I read someones quote on this site from Jesse, and it said something like "figure out where you are gonna go when you die" and with his situation, it is very real...And not just that, I have a newborn who is my world, and is nothing short of a miracle. Those of you with children understand what I mean, shes not a human derivative, shes miraculous, and it got me to thinking about spirituality and how it affects my life that I don't have it, and how it affects your lives, and from an athletic standpoint, how having faith will undoubtedly make you better in strongman, in EVERYTHING YOU DO.

I for one was raised Baptist for years. Don't practice now, haven't in years, and would probably be considered one of the worst disappointments if I compared myself to how a Christian "should" act....BUT I believe still....I want to find spirituality in myself, but have never known how...I think it will make me a better person and a better athlete, in that I will have a stronger mind. I just don't know how to find it, and obviously from other answers on the board, I'm not alone. But somethings missing, I think a few of us know it...

Whether you worship God, Allah, Buddah, A statue, as long as you have something to believe in, that's respectable, we are all on the same team :) And for those that believe in Logic, that's fine, but logically speaking you can't believe in coincidences, and maybe this thread and the responses are meant for you and me and everyone else for whatever reason??? Maybe, who knows??

Either way, thank you guys so much :) Please keep any other responses coming, I know I have read each and everyone in full detail...And Jay H. thanx for that long read, it was very interesting :)

[Kurt Hessenbruch]

Take your blinders off and look at your avatar!!! That is proof that God has indeed blessed you and is watching out for you! Your daughter was not a mistake and is not floating aimlessly in an aimless universe, nor are you or your family. She, you and your family have a purpose.
Count your blessings in the things you would not take money for, not the things you would.
Good looking family!

I believe that life is wonderful in many ways, but I cannot force myself to say it's because of God. I don't have blinders on, but rather, my thoughts are based in logic and science. Saying that everything good in life magically came from a higher power is too much of a stretch for me.

I understand your point of view and I don't begrudge anyone their specific set of beliefs, and quite honestly, I don't think you and I are all that different on a very basic level. I'm willing to bet our values are very similar, which to me, is more important than the religious beliefs that got us there. I do, indeed, cherish my family and friends to a point that cannot be explained and though money is nice to have at times, I understand that it means nothing.

Thanks for the compliment of my family. My daughter is my world!

[Jay Hagadorn]

I believe that life is wonderful in many ways, but I cannot force myself to say it's because of God. I don't have blinders on, but rather, my thoughts are based in logic and science. Saying that everything good in life magically came from a higher power is too much of a stretch for me.

I understand your point of view and I don't begrudge anyone their specific set of beliefs, and quite honestly, I don't think you and I are all that different on a very basic level. I'm willing to bet our values are very similar, which to me, is more important than the religious beliefs that got us there. I do, indeed, cherish my family and friends to a point that cannot be explained and though money is nice to have at times, I understand that it means nothing.

Thanks for the compliment of my family. My daughter is my world!

Wow Curt, I don't understand, but that's O.K. There's alot of things I don't understand.
I remember back to college, when in one of my advanced science classes the professor was speaking of "the big bang". He said that scientists believed that all the matter in the universe was compacted into a space the size of a basketball, then "BANG" it all exploded out exponentially. This made no sense to me, because I have to know as much as I can. I asked him where the matter for the basketball sized mass came from. He in turn was quite perplexed/disturbed and said, "I don't know, nobody has ever brought that up."
I do not believe in the big bang, nor evolution. They are not proven facts.
The biggest thing for me though "A man with an experience is not at the whims of a man with an arguement!" I have too many experiences with God to try to pretend that He is not there. I know we are not argueing, but I have heard unproven science from people way too much.

[Hamish Moir]

I was brought up in a very religeous (Protestant Christian) family but I found that I coulnd not subscribe to that doctrine. I still have a lot of respect for the faith and am glad of the way I was brought up but there are too many aspects of this brand of Christianity that I can't accept. Not least that perhaps 0.01% people who have ever lived have followed this religion and they are the only ones to be allowed into Heaven. That sounds like quite a prejudiced God to me and more of a symptom of human elitism than anything else.

I am increasingly interested in the indigenous religion of north Scotland; what some might refer to as paganism. I'm not all worshiping earth spirits and the like but the doctrine is, for want of a better word, beautiful. It's all about harmony with nature as these people relied on the land so much. So do we now but the Christian ethos of 'the Lord provided us' with the resources of the earth for our advantage is an open door for over-exploitation without guilt! I think we're all now starting to realise the error of our ways with that attitude! I totally reject the Roman religion now; the Latins brought nothing more than genocide and ethnic cleansing to the north of Britain. I'm proud to be Celtic and Pictish and un-Romanised!

[Kurt Hessenbruch]

I know we are not argueing, but I have heard unproven science from people way too much.

Trust me -- I am not intending to say that I am right and you are wrong. Personally, I don't know how someone could say they don't believe in evolution, but I imagine this is similar to you wondering how I could say that I have a hard time believing in a definite higher power. I'm certainly not proclaiming that there is science to explain my beliefs or lack there of, but rather, that I don't have anything tangible to prove the other side of the coin.

If I had to sum up my spirituality with a semi-recognizable term, I would say that my beliefs fall closest to pantheism.

Again, I respect your faith and would never say anything with the intention of offending anyone, especially with regard to religion. OK - I'm off to bed, as I'm heading to Disney World tomorrow with my wife and daughter. Take care.

[Scott Markowitz]

the Christian ethos of 'the Lord provided us' with the resources of the earth for our advantage is an open door for over-exploitation without guilt! I think we're all now starting to realise the error of our ways with that attitude!

This is an example of people who misunderstand or misrepresent the Bible, cherry-picking parts of it to "believe" (in reality it's more like using parts of verses to justify their own selfish practices).

It's not accurate to say that God provided us this "stuff" to do with what we wish, regardless of anything else, but that we are to be stewards. That would include the responsibility to make sure it's around for the next generation. Seems to me that there has to be room for moderation here - the strip miners and their type are on one extreme and militant vegans are on the other; neither extreme has it right. We are supposed to be able to *use* stuff, but not *abuse* it.

[Jay O'Neill]

2 things we should never discuss... Politics and religion... pretty sure there is a 3rd one, but I cant remember what it is...
Bottom line... doesnt matter to me what your religious practices or beliefs are. There is but one God and he is in charge of our lives and has determined our path.
There no atheists in Foxholes.

[Ian Duggan]

2 things we should never discuss... Politics and religion... pretty sure there is a 3rd one, but I cant remember what it is...
Squat depth isn't it?

:D

[Josh Kamins]

Trust me -- I am not intending to say that I am right and you are wrong. Personally, I don't know how someone could say they don't believe in evolution, but I imagine this is similar to you wondering how I could say that I have a hard time believing in a definite higher power. I'm certainly not proclaiming that there is science to explain my beliefs or lack there of, but rather, that I don't have anything tangible to prove the other side of the coin.

If I had to sum up my spirituality with a semi-recognizable term, I would say that my beliefs fall closest to pantheism.

Again, I respect your faith and would never say anything with the intention of offending anyone, especially with regard to religion. OK - I'm off to bed, as I'm heading to Disney World tomorrow with my wife and daughter. Take care.

Yeah, at this point it really is beyond my scope to understand with all the evidence that exists, to doubt evolution. It doesn't have to be separate from creationism anyway. I don't necessarily believe this, but a god could easily have created life and then a perfect system to create a higher being. The bible doesn't have to be taken literally....

I can show you evolution in a petri dish for fact. That doesn't mean its the sole function of new species creation, but it does undoubtedly exist.

[Barney Shannon]

My faith has carried me during many dark and rainy days in my life. Most recently, when my wife was dying from cancer. I don't think that I could have survived without it. I still have my moments of doubt but I think that I don't question stuff as much as you young guys because I'm much closer to the finish line.

[IdrisH.]

There is but one God and he is in charge of our lives and has determined our path.

Definately no argument there.

[James Fernandes]

im catholic, and God is a big part of my life, God first, then my family, then everything else, God is always first,

Without Him, I wouldnt be where I am now, at a good uni, I would probably be doing what the guys in my primary school are doing now, in prison, and wasting their life doing not much at all.

Religion kept me on a path especially during the bad years when I was younger, without God, I wouldnt have been able to stick through the bad times,

I talk to God before a heavy set of squats, or whatever lift Im doing, he helps me through my workout,

Everyones entitled to their own beliefs, my belief is God is here and is here for everyone,

[Michael Ambrose]

As sure as I know that there is indeed a higher power, I also know that faith is nothing less than the surrendering of logic and reason. I know that I was empowered by some nondescript higher power to dictate all aspects of my life and trancend adversity using my unique gifts and resources alone. I share faith and doubt equally throughout my conscious world, but it ends there. I refuse to allow myself to believe that there is my God is somewhere expecting me to dote on him, worship him and constantly pester him with all the wholly insignificant drama of my life on a daily basis. I connect with my inner peace by keeping everything outside of it real and I find a satisfying personal equilibrium in doing so. I have an unwavering faith in logic. Anything contrary to it irrevocably sterilizes all states of being, reality etc.

Damn, talk about hitting the nail on the head. I could not have described most of my belief system any better.

I believe that life is wonderful in many ways, but I cannot force myself to say it's because of God. I don't have blinders on, but rather, my thoughts are based in logic and science. Saying that everything good in life magically came from a higher power is too much of a stretch for me.

Agreed. And what of the opposite... when bad events happen. Nothing makes me sicker than hearing people lamnent that the 'bad circumstances' that has befallen them, their loved ones, etc is a result of something they themselves or the other person did and is a punishment from God.

[Ryan Brown]

I agree Ryan, but I think that choice of words not exactly the same thing as controlling your tongue. It seems to me that getting mad and shouting innocuous words is just as bad as getting mad and shouting a curse word, and probably worse than casual use of a curse word.

For example, let's consider the 3-letter word for "buttocks" ;) . (I got in trouble a while back for using this word here, but I'll risk getting in trouble again to make a point.) If we use it to refer to a donkey, then we've not done anything Jesus didn't do (well, I guess nothing the King James-era translators didn't do is a more accurate statement). If we say someone is acting like an ass You missed one!! Ha ha! :B: , we say they are being stubborn/stupid/whatever other behavior we associate with donkeys. If we say someone has a nice 3-letter word for "buttocks" ;) , or is a pain in the 3-letter word for "buttocks" ;) , we're talking about a different concept altogether. It's all about the meaning, not the word itself.

There are also certain private situations in which some words (including the big F) are appropriate. I won't get into them here, but let's just say I can imagine one involving a man and a woman married to each other.

Scott, not to say I'm perfect in this area, but honestly I don't see there being any appropriate time to use the F-word when another less offensive word could be used.

Someone else mentioned Jesus getting angry. Of course there is a time and a place for anger. I think the point is that it is to be controlled.

The point is that Christianity (or life really) shouldn't be about finding the minimum standard to get by; it should be about trying to be the very best that one can be--whether Christian, atheist or whatever.

Am I saying someone is burning in hell if they say one curse word. No. Am I saying that I think it is best practice to avoid using questionable words? Yes. If for no other reason it sets a bad example. It furthers the thought that many non-christians have that says that most Christians are hypocrites. Many people in our society feel those words are crude, rude and inappropriate. As Dave said above--it is a turn-off when you see someone claiming to be one thing and indicating that they may be another thing by their words. I feel to be a good Christian one needs to set themselves apart from the masses.

Ok--enough preacher from me...lol

[Michael Ambrose]

I need to interject some levity here... and I'm sorry that it comes at your expense Ryan. No insult meant... just good clean (well that depends on how you look at what I post!) fun. :D

There are also certain private situations in which some words (including the big F) are appropriate. I won't get into them here, but let's just say I can imagine one involving a man and a woman married to each other.

Scott, not to say I'm perfect in this area, but honestly I don't see there being any appropriate time to use the F-word when another less offensive word could be used.

As Dave said above--it is a turn-off when you see someone claiming to be one thing and indicating that they may be another thing by their words.

My condolences on not having experienced one of these situations. Somehow 'LOVE ME HARDER' just doesn't capture the essence of such a moment! :EL: That would be a much bigger turn off than the alternative!

Agian, I'm sorry... but this was a pitch (set up) right over home plate and I had to hit it. :D

[Ryan Brown]

I need to interject some levity here... and I'm sorry that it comes at your expense Ryan. No insult meant... just good clean (well that depends on how you look at what I post!) fun. :D





My condolences on not having experienced one of these situations. Somehow 'LOVE ME HARDER' just doesn't capture the essence of such a moment! :EL: That would be a much bigger turn off than the alternative!

Agian, I'm sorry... but this was a pitch (set up) right over home plate and I had to hit it. :D


lol.... :marv:

the day you catch my wife using the F-word I will assume hell has frozen.

[Eric Todd]

Who do you think Mormans worship?


Right. My copy of the Koran unfortunatley was given away a couple of weeks ago, but the Koran makes it quite clear that the Christian God and Allah are two different beings. The God of the Bible is a Trinity, Father, Son and Holy Spirit, not a single being. Even YAHWEH as worshipped by the Jews cannot be considered the same as Allah. It seems however that many Christians seem intent on saying they are the same gods, something no Koran-reading Muslim would readily agree with.

edit: For a Christian to say that Jesus is not God, would be to go against 2000 years of church history, also known as the heresy of Modalism. When you get to the bottom of the subject, if Jesus is not God (as in Mormonism, Islam, Jehovah's witnesses etc) then there really is no forgiveness of sin in the eyes of the biblical God. However if you don't think man has a sin problem, that changes things considerably.


This however is not a suitable debate for this forum, but I guess it could be taken to email or PMs. I'd prefer not though.

[James Deffinbaugh]

Reading this forum, at least among people that posted in this thread, it looks like the number of non-religious people in strongman is greater than the general population. 15% of the general population (in the United States) consider themselves non-religious, agnostic, or atheist. Of course this isn't going to be an accurate cross-section since there is probably a higher tendency for non-religious people to respond to the thread.

Someone earlier on in the thread equated morality with spirituality. I'd just like to mention that morality and spirituality are not mutually inclusive, nor is a belief in a higher power necessary for strong will or a desire to achieve. I know that's not what anyone was getting at, I'm just putting it out there because a lot of people don't understand that.

I'm atheist btw.

[Eric Todd]

I think it is best practice to controll cursing, but swear like a sailor if you want in appropriate company. I dont think I am doing any damage swearing around guys that talk like that in the first place. I do think it is a bad axample for say F in front of children.

[Michael Ambrose]

lol.... :marv:

the day you catch my wife using the F-word I will assume hell has frozen.

I can't speak for hell, but it's been DAMN COLD here in New England this month. We are frozen solid right now which is odd for this time of year.

If this is moving 'south'... it may be a snowy day in hell before this winter is over and then you're in for a surprise or two! :cool:

[CharlesDMickey]

Those that know me will attest that I am a pretty hard case. Logical and realistic, a history of hard living, hard drinking, and done a lot of things I'm not proud of. I've been on 6 continents, and sailed the seven seas, been to some of the un-godliest places on Earth and seen terrible things.

For years I said "its not that I don’t believe in God ~ but I CAN NOT believe in God".

For the logical, analytical types: if you are interested in testing what you believe to be true get a copy of The Case For Faith, by Lee Stroble. .... It got my attention and kick started my quest to reevaluate what is true.

Faith will always have some doubt. If there was irrefutable proof of the existence of God then Free Will could not exist.

[DaneGarreau]

Interesting topic, I have enjoyed reading the responses.

Funny thing on Hell freezing over, According to Dante Alighieri's "Inferno", it allready is(in some parts at least).

I had two classes this semester which I found very interesting; World Lit, and Myth&Religon.

In the World Lit class we studied the Problem of Evil(ie, how could a loving God allow evil to exist), and I imagine this is the reason why most people have either lost their faith or never found it. However, there are some great philosphical answers to this question that are very logical and quite reasonable. I highly reccomend Eric V.D. Luft's book, "God, Evil, and Ethics" to anyone interested in such a reading.

BTW, I do believe in God, and I do believe in Jesus. Personally, I think God has allready answered everyone of my prayers(past and future) by granting me free will. I believe that my attitude dictates what I think about a certain situation. ie. I don't pray to win or to lift a weight, only to understand(which has allready been granted, IMO.).

Either way, good topic, and I hope whatever you choose, it allows you to live a happy life.

[Corey DuCharme]

I can show you evolution in a petri dish for fact. That doesn't mean its the sole function of new species creation, but it does undoubtedly exist.

If you could explain how it is demonstrated in a petri dish in simple terms for me, I would appreciate it.

[Barney Shannon]

Every Atheist that I know, has a moral code that is still formed in large part by Judeo-Christian ethics. I just thought that that was strange.

[Josh Kamins]

Every Atheist that I know, has a moral code that is still formed in large part by Judeo-Christian ethics. I just thought that that was strange.

Or perhaps Judeo-Christian ethics are simply taken from a moral code that the majority of people find acceptable? Its not a stretch to assume most people, before the bible was written, agreed that murder, stealing, and coveting your neighbors wife were all immoral and wrong.

Also, having taken Jewish law and ethics classes, there is still a great deal of debate about what different scripture can mean as far as morality. Interpretation is a powerful thing...

[Hamish Moir]

This is an example of people who misunderstand or misrepresent the Bible, cherry-picking parts of it to "believe" (in reality it's more like using parts of verses to justify their own selfish practices).

It's not accurate to say that God provided us this "stuff" to do with what we wish, regardless of anything else, but that we are to be stewards. That would include the responsibility to make sure it's around for the next generation. Seems to me that there has to be room for moderation here - the strip miners and their type are on one extreme and militant vegans are on the other; neither extreme has it right. We are supposed to be able to *use* stuff, but not *abuse* it.

Believe me, I know more about Christianity than most folk (went to church every Sunday, sometimes twice, until I was 16). I'm not suggesting that the Christian faith teaches the wholesale consumption of the earth's natural resources but certain people have used it as justification for doing just that!

[James Deffinbaugh]

Every Atheist that I know, has a moral code that is still formed in large part by Judeo-Christian ethics. I just thought that that was strange.
Morality is more a function of cultural norms than religion. Most of our current ethics go back to Plato and Aristotle I believe. Religion of course helps to define a culture, so it's all closely related.

Re: Religion's function on our consumption of natural resources.
Most religions are fairly vague in a number of ways. A lot of people use their religion to justify doing things that are wrong (and sometimes it's a stretch, ie genocide), just as a lot of people do the right thing because of their religion.

[Josh Kamins]

If you could explain how it is demonstrated in a petri dish in simple terms for me, I would appreciate it.

Perhaps I should have said survival of the fittest rather than evolution...but the connection is pretty easy.

Survival of the fittest at its basic level is as follows:

Say I put a bunch of bacteria in a petri dish with some sort of food source. They will grow fine to a point, maintain a population level, etc.

If I introduce an antibiotic, the bacteria that are susceptible to this weakness die off, and all that are left are those that have mutated some sort of resistance to this antibiotic, they then reproduce and form a new colony. If I were to do this a few times with different types of harm to the bacteria, and mutations happen, the new group and the original group of bacteria can be considered different enough to be different species.

The newer bacteria have evolved to be superior to the older species because they are resistant to some antibiotic, or can handle hotter temperatures, less food, etc.

This can also be seen in nature pretty clearly....

Say some sort of earthquake happens and it separated a large group of wolves into two groups. One group has to travel north to avoid death, and the other group goes south. They will run into two different environments, and different strengths/weaknesses will be selected for. Eventually, the two groups of wolves will be different enough from each other that they may not even be able to mate successfully to form a new offspring. A new species has formed.

The problem comes with long term evolution. You may think it is a far stretch to see the connection between small single cell beings and humans, and it is more likely that a deity exists who created us as we are today. I think its pretty cool to find the connections along the way personally. In addition, this happened over a LOOOOOOOONG time, and by many chances and coincidences and some luck, we were formed as we are.

It is a hard pill to swallow that we exist by chance, but if the mechanism of evolution exists, I see no reason why it can't be considered divine in nature. I read one theory once where the guy theorizes that eventually due to evolution and the laws of entropy, the final existence in the universe is one omnipotent force of energy, and that he then becomes God and goes back to create the universe. The stretch of the 4th dimension of time has to be manipulated a little, but its an interesting theory.

[Corey DuCharme]

Perhaps I should have said survival of the fittest rather than evolution...but the connection is pretty easy.

Survival of the fittest at its basic level is as follows:

Say I put a bunch of bacteria in a petri dish with some sort of food source. They will grow fine to a point, maintain a population level, etc.

If I introduce an antibiotic, the bacteria that are susceptible to this weakness die off, and all that are left are those that have mutated some sort of resistance to this antibiotic, they then reproduce and form a new colony. If I were to do this a few times with different types of harm to the bacteria, and mutations happen, the new group and the original group of bacteria can be considered different enough to be different species.

The newer bacteria have evolved to be superior to the older species because they are resistant to some antibiotic, or can handle hotter temperatures, less food, etc.

This can also be seen in nature pretty clearly....

Say some sort of earthquake happens and it separated a large group of wolves into two groups. One group has to travel north to avoid death, and the other group goes south. They will run into two different environments, and different strengths/weaknesses will be selected for. Eventually, the two groups of wolves will be different enough from each other that they may not even be able to mate successfully to form a new offspring. A new species has formed.

The problem comes with long term evolution. You may think it is a far stretch to see the connection between small single cell beings and humans, and it is more likely that a deity exists who created us as we are today. I think its pretty cool to find the connections along the way personally. In addition, this happened over a LOOOOOOOONG time, and by many chances and coincidences and some luck, we were formed as we are.

It is a hard pill to swallow that we exist by chance, but if the mechanism of evolution exists, I see no reason why it can't be considered divine in nature. I read one theory once where the guy theorizes that eventually due to evolution and the laws of entropy, the final existence in the universe is one omnipotent force of energy, and that he then becomes God and goes back to create the universe. The stretch of the 4th dimension of time has to be manipulated a little, but its an interesting theory.

Thank you, I followed that and agreed......mostly. Concerning the bacteria, doesn't mutation, even if favorable for survival, result in the loss of information? If so, it's hard to see it leading to new species with new genetic material.

The wolf analogy makes sense, just look at the variances we as humans have bred into the domestic dog. However, adaptation within a species does not create new information, it just rearranges existing material. I think your wolves would still have identical DNA just like a St Bernard and Chihuahua do.

I'm not quite sold on evolution. If it happened, there should be millions of transitional species in the fossil record, not just a couple of debatable "Lucy's" and the like which ultimately can be proven either man or ape or hoax.

That theory you mentioned is definitely an interesting one, kind of like large scale Karma in a sense.

[DaneGarreau]

Thank you, I followed that and agreed......mostly. Concerning the bacteria, doesn't mutation, even if favorable for survival, result in the loss of information? If so, it's hard to see it leading to new species with new genetic material.

The wolf analogy makes sense, just look at the variances we as humans have bred into the domestic dog. However, adaptation within a species does not create new information, it just rearranges existing material. I think your wolves would still have identical DNA just like a St Bernard and Chihuahua do.

I'm not quite sold on evolution. If it happened, there should be millions of transitional species in the fossil record, not just a couple of debatable "Lucy's" and the like which ultimately can be proven either man or ape or hoax.

That theory you mentioned is definitely an interesting one, kind of like large scale Karma in a sense.

There are two kinds of evolution, Micro and Macro.

Micro concerns what Josh is talking about, the aquisition of traits based on survival of the fittest. These traits only become more favorable because the environment changes. The peppered moth is really the best example of this(do a quick google search). The environment changed so the the species will either adapt(due to survival of the fittest and sending down those favorable genes), or will die off and become extinct.

Having said all that, Micro evolution only deals with interspecies adaptation. The theories on this are pretty much a lead pipe lock and you would be hard pressed to find anyone with any kind of knowledge concerning science to disagree with it.

On the otherhand, Macroevolution deals with the formation of new species(ie can't mate with one another). These theories are a little more of a stretch, but they have a decent basis(i'm not sure I agree with them though).

[Josh Kamins]

Dane's right the hard part is adapting Micro evolution to Macro evolution...

As far as information being lost, I'm not sure I know what you mean. The DNA code is just being changed. Mutation can come from a number of things, it in fact happens all the time in all of us, but our bodies are pretty good at finding and eliminating debilitating mutations. There can be an addition of a nuceotide, a subtraction, or a nonsensical mutation. However, sometimes, these changes result in functional changes in the gene.

There are millions of transitional pieces of evidence. There are holes in the link from species to species, but that does not mean evolution itself is wrong, it just means we need more evidence to make it 100%. We can see where certain traits began, where certain species originated certain biological functions, and then every species after that has such a trait, whereas everybody before them did not. We aren't going to see successful species with say one wing, and not the other and consider that a transition, because mutations that aren't fully successful won't lead to survival...

[James Deffinbaugh]

A genetic mutation can result in a gain, change, or loss of information. That change is more likely to be propagated if it's a beneficial mutation.
Major changes, like additional chromosomes, are much, much less likely to happen. That's why evolution is so slow. Minor changes can be viewed in a petri dish, but the difference between a cow and a dog took an extremely long time.
There is a huge number of transitional species. Also, it's very unlikely for remains of any animal to last a hundred years, much less a million. We see fossilized dinosaurs because they existed for a very long time and there were environmental factors that allowed a very, very, very small percentage of them to be fossilized.

I believe even the Pope has accepted evolution as true (or at least 'more than just a hypothesis'), to bring him in line with 99.99% of the scientific community. He says that evolution is compatible with the Christian faith, so you can believe in evolution without contradicting your faith.

[Josh Kamins]

A genetic mutation can result in a gain, change, or loss of information. That change is more likely to be propagated if it's a beneficial mutation.
Major changes, like additional chromosomes, are much, much less likely to happen. That's why evolution is so slow. Minor changes can be viewed in a petri dish, but the difference between a cow and a dog took an extremely long time.
There is a huge number of transitional species. Also, it's very unlikely for remains of any animal to last a hundred years, much less a million. We see fossilized dinosaurs because they existed for a very long time and there were environmental factors that allowed a very, very, very small percentage of them to be fossilized.

I believe even the Pope has accepted evolution as true (or at least 'more than just a hypothesis'), to bring him in line with 99.99% of the scientific community. He says that evolution is compatible with the Christian faith, so you can believe in evolution without contradicting your faith.

Good points...also good point about the Pope. He is a bit conservative on other issues, but I was happy for him to admit that evolution can coexist with religious faith, that was an important step. If he would only tell the continent of Africa to use condoms to stop spreading AIDS we would be in good shape, but thats another issue ;)

[Scott Markowitz]

...

I wasn't suggesting that you were the one doing the misinterpreting; I was referring to the people who do the whole "rape the earth" thing and use the Bible for justification that you talked about. Sorry for the confusion.

[Corey DuCharme]

There are millions of transitional pieces of evidence.

Name one please.

No, not one winged birds, more like the transition from say a lizard to a bird including wing budded versions, small winged versions, unrefined winged versions.....etc. How would that jump even be made anyway? A lizard realizes millions of years from now his ancestors would find food and survive better with wings so he starts growing them?

The Pope comment is interesting, but I decline to discuss it out of respect for Catholic Christians.

[Scott Markowitz]

Re: transitional evidence

Don't forget all the snakes with hollow fangs but no venom glands...no, wait...they had venom glands but no fangs to deliver it...hmm...maybe not.

[Corey DuCharme]

If he would only tell the continent of Africa to use condoms to stop spreading AIDS we would be in good shape, but thats another issue ;)

The Pope has already provided his advice to the problem, which would be much more effective than condoms. It's up to the people to decide what they do now.

[Michael Ambrose]

Name one please.

No, not one winged birds, more like the transition from say a lizard to a bird including wing budded versions, small winged versions, unrefined winged versions.....etc. How would that jump even be made anyway? A lizard realizes millions of years from now his ancestors would find food and survive better with wings so he starts growing them?


It's 'funny'/ironic that you should use the example of a lizard to a bird. There is a great deal of evidence, from fossils, that the most closely related decendants to the dinosaurs (aka 'lizards') are modern birds.


{edit}
Just a link to a recent discovery in that vein.

http://www.nationalgeographic.com/events/releases/pr980623.html

[Jay O'Neill]

Anyone else feel the need to use big terms, sound smart, be anymore self important?

[JanEricDyke]

Anyone else feel the need to use big terms, sound smart, be anymore self important?

Language is the vehicle for our thoughts. I think those that have elevated this discussion with articulate and thoughtful arguments are to be congratulated rather than scolded. It is not bad that people bring their education to bear on topics discussed here, I think it is why many of us come here to read and discuss ideas. We do not criticize those who speak eloquently or insightfully on topics related to strongman or nutrition for using the language of those disciplines.

[RyanWilson]

The Pope has already provided his advice to the problem, which would be much more effective than condoms. It's up to the people to decide what they do now.

Uh oh...don't go slinging the "A" word 'roud here...you're going to open up a whole new can of worms. :D

[Michael Ambrose]

Anyone else feel the need to use big terms, sound smart, be anymore self important?

Jay,

I don't see that in this discussion at all from anyone. Given the intense feeling and beliefs that most people have on God, creation and evolution, I think this is one of the most civilized discussion that I have seen online regarding this topic. It's refreshing. Also totally off topic for this board and veering from it's original 'intent'... but that happens.

I could be way off base here being that you can't infer a lot just based on what someone has written but what is there, but imo... your post sounds as if some belief of your has been 'stepped on' and you are insulted and angry. If so, say your peace.

[Josh Kamins]

I agree, cmon Jay we are having a good conversation here...you think I am being self important because I use scientific terms? I assume as a doctor, you also use medically related terms to refer to medical problems. Its the same thing. If you don't want to participate, thats fine, but let us have our peaceful exchange of ideas.

And sorry guys, ignore my pope comment about AIDS, just a non sequitur that can be explored elsewhere.

[Josh Kamins]

Name one please.

No, not one winged birds, more like the transition from say a lizard to a bird including wing budded versions, small winged versions, unrefined winged versions.....etc. How would that jump even be made anyway? A lizard realizes millions of years from now his ancestors would find food and survive better with wings so he starts growing them?


Evolution is not conscious in any way, it is merely caused by gradual adaptation to the environment. Also you have to realize that it is not tree-like in record but more a bush. There are tons and tons of offshoots that didn't work out. Some have fossil record, but many do not as fossils require VERY exact circumstances to be created,...

Here's a good example I found online of a transition that you can see of the progression from fish to amphibian.


The limbs of amphibians first evolved in fish that crawled along the sea floor.

The first fish on the path to amphibians, the paleoniscoids, resembled today's coelacanth, with thick fins and lungs.

The next fish, Osteolepis, had leg-like, bendable fins, and an amphibian-like skull.

The next step, the rhipidistian lobe-finned fish, had fins that resembled legs, with joints, and an even more amphibian-like skull.

The next fish, the panderichthyids , looked very amphibian-like, with legs with feet and a straight tail.

Next we have fish such as Ichthyostega, , which most people would think to be amphibians. They had legs, feet, tails and skulls that were very amphibian-like.

The next group, the labyrinthodonts, are recognized as the first amphibians. But they still had vestiges of their fish ancestry, such as some gill-like structures and a skull hinge that was found in fish. Some even had internal gills. Their feet were build like modified fish flippers with the rays serving as toes- some early amphibians had seven or eight toes per foot!

[Matt Lebo]

I'm a dirty Jew, though I am more Jewish in culture than faith. Science could almost be considered my religion these days...
That's me to a T. I'm Jewish by birth, got Bar Mitzvahd, married a christian girl, and religion plays no part in my life. I have no problem with people with faith as long as it's not pushed on me. My drive and determination come from within and I don't need anyone or anything else to help. But that's just me...

[Paul Neuhaus]

For those of you that believe in evolution, I'd like to know what you believe we evolved from. And please don't say "apes" because apes still roam the earth and they are not changing.

[Jay Hagadorn]

Gotta let you guys and gals know first off, I am not important. Somewhat educated, but we'll leave it at that.
A quote from Charles Darwin:
" To profess that the human eye developed through evolution I must admit is ubsurd to the highest degree." He had an idea that he wasn't even fully sold on and many more have ran w/ it. It has become a religion of its own if you will. Here is some food for thought:

1. The Fossil Record.
The fossil record provides evidence for a complex, instantaneous creation. Why? A: The lower geologic layers reveal a sudden proliferation of complex life forms with every phyla represented. This Cambrian Explosion or “Big Bang” of life is preceded by no simpler forms. B: Today’s living forms show no change from their supposed ancient ancestors. C: There are large and systematic gaps between the different kinds of fossils rather than gradual, evolutionary changes.

2. Irreducible Complexity
Prepackaged, highly engineered systems exist in our bodies that are so complex they defy evolutionary explanations. These systems involve integrated multiple parts and reactions that work together only as a whole. If you eliminate any one piece, none of the system works at all. Evolution supposedly operates by natural selection perfecting less developed systems. However, natural selection requires something working and in place to perfect! Examples in the human body are the immune system, blood clotting, and any one of hundreds of biochemical pathways.

3. Gaps in the Living World
If isolated members of a species change by evolutionary processes, the main population group can still continue. We should be able to read the history of the evolutionary progression right across the very top of the evolutionary branching tree. We can’t! Just as the fossil record contains large systematic gaps, the living world does too. We see evidence for creation of distinct kinds — not one kind changing into another.

4. Laws of Probability
The odds are enormously great against the successful occurrence of each of the myriads of needed evolutionary changes! Even the probability of 1 small protein occurring by accident is 1 chance out of 10260. Since we have thousands of even larger proteins, it is inconceivable they all happened by chance. Coupling that with intricate structures like eyes, wings, hearts, lungs, etc., the laws of probability scream out, “Creation!”

5. Law of Cause and Effect:
The Law of Cause and Effect is one of the best documented principles of science and of everyday experience. Every event must have a sufficient cause. Since the origin of the universe and the origin of life are events, they too must have a cause. The physical universe consisting of time, space, energy, and matter must all have a cause outside themselves. Likewise, life must have a living Cause. Following this reasoning to its logical conclusion, leads to an infinite, eternal, powerful, intelligent, living First Cause--our awesome Creator!

6. Chicken or Egg Principle
Which came first, the chicken or the egg? This question has plagued philosophers for a long time. The question is even deeper, however. Chickens have many proteins. Each protein is coded for by the DNA/RNA system. However, many specific proteins are needed in order to manufacture DNA/RNA. So which came first: proteins or DNA/RNA? The logical explanation is that they were both created.

7. Intelligent Design
Intelligent Design demands an Intelligent Designer. The airplane, computer, and digital camera originated not by random, undirected, chance processes, but by engineering genius. Such sophisticated acheivements however, pale in comparison to the extremely complex, systematically ordered, precision regulated systems of living tissue. The superior flight of the dragonfly, the mind boggling information mega-processor of the human brain, and the eye as a self-focusing, fully-automatic, high resolution, 3-D motion picture camera are the natural prototypes for our acclaimed tech marvels. It is scientifically inconceivable, unreasonable and illogical to credit blind, brainless chance as their maker. God alone is wise without limits, and deserves the Glory.

8. The Anthropic Principle
The Anthropic Principle observes that the universe, including our beautiful, blue planet appears to have been specifically designed for man to inhabit (just as Isaiah 45:18 says). Without the delicate balance of multitudes of physical properties, life would be impossible. Examples include the strength of the four basic forces in the universe (gravitational, electromagnetic, strong and weak nuclear forces), the size and shape of the earth, the distance from earth to sun, the tilt of the earth’s axis, the concentration of atmospheric gases, and the presence of abundant liquid water. It couldn’t just happen.

9. Information Theory
Information has intelligence as its source, not haphazard chaotic chance. A computer programmer instills purpose, plan, and design by implementing and organizing recognizable bits of data into an understandable language framework. In biological systems, information is encoded as DNA, the programmed software of cells. As evolutionist Dr . Micheal Denton says in his book Evolution: A Theory in Crisis, “The capacity of DNA to store information vastly exceeds that of any other known system; it is so efficient that all the information needed to specify an organism as complex as man weighs less than a few thousand millionths of a gram.” Since raw organic molecules have no intrinsic cognitive capacity, who injected the information into the DNA? God alone is able.

10. Extreme Complexity
Complexity beyond comprehension characterizes all life forms, including the so-called “simple cell.” As Dr. Micheal Denton states referring to the cell, “...we would find ourselves in a world of supreme technology and bewildering complexity...beyond our own creative capacities.” Everything, from atomic structures to cells, organs, organ systems, and living creatures speaks of incredible order, balance, and unity as a whole.

and God Said It!
It is really hard to argue with the only One who claims to have been there when the universe and life began. He said He created everything to reproduce “after its own kind” — not one kind changing into another.
He was thereand He is a witness to it.

[Josh Kamins]

For those of you that believe in evolution, I'd like to know what you believe we evolved from. And please don't say "apes" because apes still roam the earth and they are not changing.

Thats just a misunderstanding of evolution. Not every single precursor to homo sapiens survived, similarly not every one evolved. Also, the fact that a species evolves does not cause the previous form to stop existing.

As I said, it looks more like a bush than a tree. There are many many paths, some of them end, some keep going and branch off.

How do you know that "apes" are not changing?

[anton axelsson]

my oppinion is that none of us can actually say that there isnt a higher power or say that there is, but my oppinion is that religioun is something we are taught at a young age so we dont fear death and if we die we go to this great place with angels and what not.. ok thats fine but for us to sit here as adults and say with bettre knowladge that there is a god and god means well and helps u threw life and make choices for u and makes ur life this great thing,is just plane ignorant to me, im sorry every choice and mistake and what i do is all me and the good things that happen to me is thanks to the people i suround myself with and me NOT GOD god is simply a mith just like santa clause and the easter bunny ive maid some teribble choices in life and never was ur god there to help me in anyway,,, family is all u have in life so charish what u have while u have it beacause my oppinion is that when life takes an end thats it just like the hard drive on ur computer when it melts down thats it everything u know has been taught to u from day 1 intill ur time comes...

hope nobody gets affendid but we are all open here to diffrant believes

[Josh Kamins]

Ok I guess Ill break these down piece by piece like you did, since there are a lot of holes in the logic. I also have a problem with trying to use logic to imply evolution is wrong but creationism is right. This is because by nature, your beliefs require faith and cannot be verified by experiment or logic, whereas science is based on logic. Science isn't always right, but thats just the inherent truth.


1. There are multiple explosions of new life forms in the fossil record. There are two reasons for this. One, fossils take very specific environments to form, and often happen in a grouping because of this. Two, speciation itself tends to happen in explosions due to natural disasters, changing environments, or any number of things that can cause a need for adaptation by multiple species.

Therefore, these do not point away from evolution, but in fact verify my previous points.

2. This is a weird point of yours that I don't really understand. You can find evolution of complex systems from basic to complex, so I don't really know how to respond. We can trace less complex circulatory systems through their progression to our 4 chamber heart with an advanced network of blood vessels. The fact that I can cut the heart in half and suddenly it doesn't work means nothing. Look at mitochondria for example. Complexity doesn't insinuate creationism.


3. Species adapt randomly, but survive for a reason. The fact that a certain group isn't alive doesn't mean they never existed. Extinction is commonplace today.

4. This is a common argument, but there are billions of organisms, changing through billions of years. Theres plenty of time for this to happen.

Besides, you saying that this couldn't have happened because the odds are too great, but then saying its more likely they were created by an omnipotent being that can't be proven contradicts itself. You have to take many more jumps of faith than I.

5. Evolution and the big bang are very different theories of science, having nothing to do with each other. The laws of cause and effect do not exclude survival of the fittest. As far as origin of life, why does the origin of life have to be a living cause? The perfect environment, and a source of energy could surely be enough. By your theory, what created God? You are saying everything has to have a beginning and another life force to create it, but again, you contradict yourself.

6. First, I'll settle this long held debate. The egg came first. The species that hatched this egg was not a chicken, but a mutation occurred during birth and a new species formed, and that was a chicken which was inside this egg. Therefore, egg came first.

Second, the protein came first most likely, because protein structures are probably needed to make everything else. However, they could have been created simultaneously. Not knowing the answer to this does not insinuate creationism is right in any way.

7. Sorry, I find the creation by survival of the fittest just as beautiful, and I believe the glory should be given to that. See how thats not a valid argument? Just because we are complex and well designed doesn't mean that God made us or evolution made us, its just an observance having nothing to do with logic.

8. There are trillions of planets in this universe. Out there, there is most likely a planet just like ours somewhere, just by chance, with the same water content and gravitational fields. We happen to be at the right distance from the sun for a lot to happen for life based on carbon and water. However, there can be other life forms with other bases of life. The fact is that our planet is perfect for our existence, and thats why life evolved here rather than Mars.

If we were to find bacteria or even insects on another planet, how would this affect your beliefs?

9. Again you are assuming intelligent design. This is circular logic. You are basically saying, DNA is so perfect because someone created it perfectly, therefore it requires someone intelligent to create it. If I put a trillion computers out there and made them randomly type C++ code into a computer, eventually a certain amount of them would have working programs of some type.

10. Not sure if you actually said anything here besides God said it in the bible, therefore it is. If you have another point here, let me know so I can think about it.

[CharlesDMickey]

Thats just a misunderstanding of evolution. Not every single precursor to homo sapiens survived, similarly not every one evolved. Also, the fact that a species evolves does not cause the previous form to stop existing.

As I said, it looks more like a bush than a tree. There are many many paths, some of them end, some keep going and branch off.

How do you know that "apes" are not changing?


Hi Josh,

Marilyn here:

I'm going to go get a drink and answer this one. :rolleyes:

[Scott Markowitz]

my oppinion is that none of us can actually say that there isnt a higher power or say that there is, but my oppinion is that religioun is something we are taught at a young age so we dont fear death and if we die we go to this great place with angels and what not.. ok thats fine but for us to sit here as adults and say with bettre knowladge that there is a god and god means well and helps u threw life and make choices for u and makes ur life this great thing,is just plane ignorant to me, im sorry every choice and mistake and what i do is all me and the good things that happen to me is thanks to the people i suround myself with and me NOT GOD god is simply a mith just like santa clause and the easter bunny ive maid some teribble choices in life and never was ur god there to help me in anyway,,, family is all u have in life so charish what u have while u have it beacause my oppinion is that when life takes an end thats it just like the hard drive on ur computer when it melts down thats it everything u know has been taught to u from day 1 intill ur time comes...

hope nobody gets affendid but we are all open here to diffrant believes

I'll give you a pass on this one (not that I'm anyone important) but in the future, if you don't want to offend people, how about making your point without saying that people who have different viewpoints are "just plane ignorant"?

[Ryan Nielson]

Count me in as well. Like it or not I am an atheist.


At the risk of being totally ostracized: I'm an atheist. I had a loving upbringing, centered around the church for the most part, and always had strong faith. My father is actually a pastor for the United Methodist Church. Events in my life around three years ago led me to start questioning that faith, and led to the eventual disintegration of a belief in anything other than myself.

[Scott Markowitz]

You have to take many more jumps of faith than I.

Note: This is not directed personally at Josh, but at the theory in general.

This is reflective of my biggest problem with evolutionists. They attack creationists for rejecting science in favor of faith, yet they are just as faith-based as anyone. (Defining faith as belief in something that cannot be empirically and definitively proven using current scientific methods.) Not that it matters on the grand scale, but I know I'd be happier if they'd just admit this point.

[Josh Kamins]

Note: This is not directed personally at Josh, but at the theory in general.

This is reflective of my biggest problem with evolutionists. They attack creationists for rejecting science in favor of faith, yet they are just as faith-based as anyone. (Defining faith as belief in something that cannot be empirically and definitively proven using current scientific methods.) Not that it matters on the grand scale, but I know I'd be happier if they'd just admit this point.

I completely admit there are holes in the theory of evolution, however this does not prove that it is incorrect. There are holes in knowledge about many laws in science that we continue to investigate. I am not attacking your faith, I am just saying it is a prerequisite to believe in creationism. There are certainly beliefs I have in science that are most likely wrong, but I can test these hypotheses with experiments witch is why we call them hypotheses rather than 'beliefs'. The fact that holes currently exist in the path from a stew of molecules to complex life doesn't mean that it cannot be proven.

I also do not like the argument from creationists that evolution is "merely a theory" Theory doesn't mean hypothesis, in fact a "theory" can no longer become a law

[Ian Duggan]

There are problems with the evolutionary vs creationism debate.

Firstly the two seem fairly incompatible, which is a problem because the potential truth of either one, potentially proves the fallacy of the other. Makes the debate very heated.

Secondly they are not comparable. One is a scientific theory, based on year / decades of research; the other is basically based on "because it says so here in this book." (I don't mean that in an offensive way, I'm just simplifying for the sake of speed). It's a debate that will never be resolved one way or the other. You can't put theory versus belief. (which is also why they shoudn't be taught side by side in schools, but that's a whole other topic...)

Thirdly, because of the second problem, creationists attempt to disprove evolution with the intent of strengthening their own position, which is a logical fallacy. Just because A is false, doesn't make B true. Saying "that isn't an apple, so it must be a banana," is not a proof. (eg. Jay saying "the laws of probability scream out, “Creation!” " Actually, the laws of probability in an infinite universe scream out "infinte possiblilities")

And finally, this will never been settled - the existence of God can never been categorically proven or refuted, and equally even if evolution was 100% finished and flawless (which, of course, it's not; no scientific theorem of this complexity ever is) no person of faith is going to throw in their religious book of choice and say "ah well, I was wrong all along. Pass the fossils." In this subject you're either preaching to the converted (pardon the pun) or arguing with a brick wall.

[MalachiMcMullen]

For those of you that believe in evolution, I'd like to know what you believe we evolved from. And please don't say "apes" because apes still roam the earth and they are not changing.

Well, apes:D I've done 3 research papers on this subject and the only recurring and comparable themes are the people, not the theory.

It's a conflict in the ways of thinking.
Some people don't need to see something with their own eyes or touch it with their own hands to believe it happened or is real. Others want to know what makes stuff work, why it works, how to replicate it or make it better etc etc etc. I admit I would be the latter. Most people on both sides simply cannot fathom how the other thinks, religious folk can't and don't want to imagine a world without god, science folk don't know why people would put faith and their lives in the hands of some supreme being.

Reducing the sometimes extremely complex issue of evolution vs. creationism to it's simplest form puts it at Science vs. Monotheists.

Creationism isn't too popular among polytheistic religions as they have their own theories of how their gods worked together to make the universe and all it's beauty, that means it's inconsistent. YES, Evolution is also inconsistent but those gaps can be filled in with something other than "god did it" so it has universal appeal and it doesn't care what religion you are. Remember too that archeology just edged past 100 about a decade ago and for the first 30 or so years the only thing archeologists were after was to find proof of god and the stories in the bible until most of them gave up.

Bottom line in my mind is that this issue needs time to figure out. Like I said non-religious biased archeology is less than 100 years old and evolution isn't much older while the countless religions have already had thousands of years to fight, kill, persecute, torture and scar history and countless billions of people(with the exceptions of the jews, correct me if I'm wrong but aren't the jews the only religion that hasn't had a religious crusade?) Religion has resisted and fought against science since biblical times but it continues to bloom so why fight it? Is there really a chance that science could destroy peoples faith?!?!?!!? I say if your really worried about science, movies, books and other media ruining or endangering your beliefs you better think long and hard about what you really believe. If you are strong in your faith then learning about evolution and letting your kids learn about evolution shouldn't bother you.

I've always viewed religion as something early peoples used to answer questions, well now we have science to help in that.

I said earlier in this thread that I am a disc grinder on religion, well I don't mean to offend anyone as this is the first time I've been able to debate this topic anywhere and not either have people yell at me and never talk to me again or have the thread closed.

[Jay Hagadorn]

Scott I agree w/ your Post.

Josh some of your post made sense to me, some of it did not. I respect and love you as a "brother" in strength, so I am not trying to be mean. I believe it takes more "faith" if you will to believe that there is no god than to believe that there is one. So for this, I commend you in your faith. But I beleive also that evolution is a religion for most. I work out religiously and brush my teeth religiously. My faith in God is different. It is a heart condition and a relationship with my creator. As I said before, a man with an experience is not at the whims of a man with an argument. I have too many experiences to say anything other than "Yes there is a God."

Check this definition out:
<dl><dt class="hwrd">Main Entry:</dt><dd class="hwrd">re·li·gion
</dd><dt class="pron">Pronunciation:</dt><dd class="pron"> \ri-ˈli-jən\ </dd><dt class="func">Function:</dt><dd class="func">noun </dd><dt class="ety">Etymology:</dt><dd class="ety">Middle English religioun, from Anglo-French religiun, Latin religion-, religio supernatural constraint, sanction, religious practice, perhaps from religare to restrain, tie back — more at rely (http://www.m-w.com/dictionary/rely)</dd><dt class="date">Date:</dt><dd class="date">13th century</dd></dl> 2: a personal set or institutionalized system of religious (http://www.m-w.com/dictionary/religious) attitudes, beliefs, and practices3archaic : scrupulous conformity : conscientiousness (http://www.m-w.com/dictionary/conscientiousness)4: a cause, principle, or system of beliefs held to with ardor and faith

So yes, most evolutionists are religious. Evolution is their religion.

The test of any theory is whether or not it provides answers to basic questions. Some well-meaning but misguided people think evolution is a reasonable theory to explain man’s questions about the universe. Evolution is not a good theory—it is just a pagan religion masquerading as science.

If you will humor me one last time; think about these questions and answer them to the best of your knowledge:
The test of any theory is whether or not it provides answers to basic questions. Some well-meaning but misguided people think evolution is a reasonable theory to explain man’s questions about the universe. Evolution is not a good theory—it is just a pagan religion masquerading as science. And since evolution is tied into the supossed foundations of the Earth, I'll go back a little further.


1. Where did the space for the universe come from?

2. Where did matter come from?

3. Where did the laws of the universe come from (gravity, inertia, etc.)?

4. How did matter get so perfectly organized?

5. Where did the energy come from to do all the organizing?

6. When, where, why, and how did life come from dead matter?

7. When, where, why, and how did life learn to reproduce itself?

8. With what did the first cell capable of sexual reproduction reproduce?

9. Why would any plant or animal want to reproduce more of its kind since this would only make more mouths to feed and decrease the chances of survival? (Does the individual have a drive to survive, or the species? How do you explain this?)

10. How can mutations (recombining of the genetic code) create any new, improved varieties? (Recombining English letters will never produce Chinese books.)

11. Is it possible that similarities in design between different animals prove a common Creator instead of a common ancestor?

12. Natural selection only works with the genetic information available and tends only to keep a species stable. How would you explain the increasing complexity in the genetic code that must have occurred if evolution were true?

13. When, where, why, and how did: a) Single-celled plants become multicelled? (Where are the two- and threecelled intermediates?) b) Single-celled animals evolve? c) Fish change to amphibians? d) Amphibians change to reptiles? e) Reptiles change to birds? (The lungs, bones, eyes, reproductive organs, heart, method of locomotion, body covering, etc., are all very different!) How did the intermediate forms live?

14. When, where, why, how, and from what did: a) Whales evolve? b) Sea horses evolve? c) Bats evolve? d) Eyes evolve? e) Ears evolve? f) Hair, skin, feathers, scales, nails, claws, etc., evolve?

15. Which evolved first (how, and how long, did it work without the others)? a) The digestive system, the food to be digested, the appetite, the ability to find and eat the food, the digestive juices, or the body’s resistance to its own digestive juice (stomach, intestines, etc.)? b) The drive to reproduce or the ability to reproduce? c) The lungs, the mucus lining to protect them, the throat, or the perfect mixture of gases to be breathed into the lungs? d) DNA or RNA to carry the DNA message to cell parts? e) The termite or the flagella in its intestines that actually digest the cellulose? f) The plants or the insects that live on and pollinate the plants? g) The bones, ligaments, tendons, blood supply, or muscles to move the bones? h) The nervous system, repair system, or hormone system? i) The immune system or the need for it?

[Jay O'Neill]

Jay,

I don't see that in this discussion at all from anyone. Given the intense feeling and beliefs that most people have on God, creation and evolution, I think this is one of the most civilized discussion that I have seen online regarding this topic. It's refreshing. Also totally off topic for this board and veering from it's original 'intent'... but that happens.

I could be way off base here being that you can't infer a lot just based on what someone has written but what is there, but imo... your post sounds as if some belief of your has been 'stepped on' and you are insulted and angry. If so, say your peace.

Not at all.... I just read the posts and laugh at the way some of these terms are thrown around... I spoke my peace about God.

[Garrick Daft]

Not pertinent to the discussion at hand.

[Jay Hagadorn]

Religion has resisted and fought against science since biblical times but it continues to bloom so why fight it? Is there really a chance that science could destroy peoples faith?!?!?!!? I say if your really worried about science, movies, books and other media ruining or endangering your beliefs you better think long and hard about what you really believe. If you are strong in your faith then learning about evolution and letting your kids learn about evolution shouldn't bother you.

I've always viewed religion as something early peoples used to answer questions, well now we have science to help in that.



Malachi-
Just a few small biblical examlpes of how science confirms the bible:

Science Confirms the Bible

<table border="1" bordercolor="#000066" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="0" width="100%"><tbody><tr class="aawitnessingtableofcontents" align="left" valign="top"> <td valign="middle" width="33%"> THE BIBLE
(2,000–3,000 years ago)
</td> <td valign="middle" width="33%"> SCIENCE THEN
</td> <td valign="middle" width="33%"> SCIENCE NOW
</td> </tr> <tr class="aawitnessingtableofcontents" align="left" valign="top"> <td>The earth is a sphere (Isaiah 40:22).</td> <td>The earth was a flat disk.</td> <td>The earth is a sphere. </td> </tr> <tr class="aawitnessingtableofcontents" align="left" valign="top"> <td>Innumerable stars (Jeremiah 33:22).</td> <td>Only 1,100 stars.</td> <td>Innumerable stars. </td> </tr> <tr class="aawitnessingtableofcontents" align="left" valign="top"> <td>Free float of earth in space (Job 26:7).</td> <td>Earth sat on a large animal.</td> <td>Free float of earth in space. </td> </tr> <tr class="aawitnessingtableofcontents" align="left" valign="top"> <td>Creation made of invisible elements (Hebrews11:3).</td> <td>Science was ignorant on the subject.</td> <td>Creation made of invisible elements (atoms). </td> </tr> <tr class="aawitnessingtableofcontents" align="left" valign="top"> <td>Each star is different (1 Corinthians 15:41).</td> <td>All stars were the same.</td> <td>Each star is different.</td> </tr> <tr class="aawitnessingtableofcontents" align="left" valign="top"> <td>Light moves (Job 38:19,20).</td> <td>Light was fixed in place.</td> <td>Light moves.</td> </tr> <tr class="aawitnessingtableofcontents" align="left" valign="top"> <td>Air has weight (Job 28:25).</td> <td>Air was weightless.</td> <td>Air has weight.</td> </tr> <tr class="aawitnessingtableofcontents" align="left" valign="top"> <td>Winds blow in cycles (Ecclesiastes 1:6).</td> <td>Winds blew straight.</td> <td>Winds blow in cycles.</td> </tr> <tr class="aawitnessingtableofcontents" align="left" valign="top"> <td>Blood is the source of life and health (Leviticus 17:11).</td> <td>Sick people must be bled.</td> <td>Blood is the source of life and health.</td> </tr> <tr class="aawitnessingtableofcontents" align="left" valign="top"> <td>Ocean floor contains deep valleys and mountains (2 Samuel 22:16; Jonah 2:6).</td> <td>The ocean floor was flat.</td> <td>Ocean floor contains deep valleys and mountains.</td> </tr> <tr class="aawitnessingtableofcontents" align="left" valign="top"> <td>Ocean contains springs (Job 38:16).</td> <td>Ocean fed only by rivers and rain.</td> <td>Ocean contains springs.</td> </tr> <tr class="aawitnessingtableofcontents" align="left" valign="top"> <td>When dealing with disease, hands should be washed under running water (Leviticus 15:13).</td> <td>Hands washed in still water.</td> <td>When dealing with disease, hands should be washed under running water.</td></tr></tbody></table>

[Jay Hagadorn]

Guys, I graciously bow out of this thread. People are going to do what people are going to do. We all have free will to believe as we wish. Besides, it's God's loving kindness that draws people to repentance.
Back to Wes' original question once again, yes my faith in God helps me through everything, even huge lifts or attempts. Still praying for you all 'cause I care, and I'll see you on the strongman tour :D .

[Paul Neuhaus]

Bottom line in my mind is that this issue needs time to figure out. Like I said non-religious biased archeology is less than 100 years old and evolution isn't much older while the countless religions have already had thousands of years to fight, kill, persecute, torture and scar history and countless billions of people(with the exceptions of the jews, correct me if I'm wrong but aren't the jews the only religion that hasn't had a religious crusade?) Religion has resisted and fought against science since biblical times but it continues to bloom so why fight it? Is there really a chance that science could destroy peoples faith?!?!?!!? I say if your really worried about science, movies, books and other media ruining or endangering your beliefs you better think long and hard about what you really believe. If you are strong in your faith then learning about evolution and letting your kids learn about evolution shouldn't bother you.


First, be careful of how you generalize or stereotype. Over the course of history, many Christian leaders have committed horrible sins (such as you've listed) and given the rest of us a bad name.

Second, no. No science, nor anything else for that matter, could ever destroy my faith. But, I am intrigued by what your beliefs are and that's why I asked the question.

[Scott Markowitz]

I completely admit there are holes in the theory of evolution, however this does not prove that it is incorrect. There are holes in knowledge about many laws in science that we continue to investigate. I am not attacking your faith, I am just saying it is a prerequisite to believe in creationism. There are certainly beliefs I have in science that are most likely wrong, but I can test these hypotheses with experiments witch is why we call them hypotheses rather than 'beliefs'. The fact that holes currently exist in the path from a stew of molecules to complex life doesn't mean that it cannot be proven.

I also do not like the argument from creationists that evolution is "merely a theory" Theory doesn't mean hypothesis, in fact a "theory" can no longer become a law

I never said that the presence of holes in the theory prove its incorrectness. Neither does the inability to prove creation. My point is that the things you have to accept as given in order to believe evolution are not qualitatively different than the things I have to accept in order to believe creation. Advances in scientific investigation may change that at some future point, but given current methods you can no more prove evolution than I can prove creation.

As far as experimentation to prove hypotheses, this is true with microevolution but not macro.

I agree with the "merely a theory" argument - it's wordplay. Common usage of the word theory is not the same as scientific usage of the word. However, given the lack of testable evidence for it, I'd say evolution more closely resembles the former than the latter.

(PS - I thought a law was just a theory that had been proven long enough and often enough. Is that not the case? What is the definition of a law then?)

[Chuck Lopez]

I am not a man of religion, but I will say that having faith of some kind does seem to help motivate people to move that extra bit of weight or get that last rep, it seems to be when you know there's someone there who's always got your back it allows you to go all out.

x2, I myself believe in God (in my own way) but stopped being really religious a little while ago, was raised Roman Catholic but I never took the Bible in the literal sense (only in the moral sense that it was written for IMO).


Jay, your first 5 questions would probably need a degree in particle physics to answer!

Questions 9-15 are covered in most biology textsbooks, or at least the results of research in those subject areas.

very interesting bible-science corellation post!

Paul Neahause, just cause you aksed, I (again JUST ME) believe we evolved originally on this planet from a single cell, you'd be suprised (as I was myself suprised) to learn we share a large part of our genome (same genes) with mice and pufferfish, on the protein level we are also 92% compatible with chimpanzees but they are our current closest relative not our direct ancestors.

Just stuff I find interesting from what I've learned about genetics this semester, I dont' believe any of this should take away from anyones faith in God

[Paul Neuhaus]

Paul Neahause, just cause you aksed, I (again JUST ME) believe we evolved originally on this planet from a single cell, you'd be suprised (as I was myself suprised) to learn we share a large part of our genome (same genes) with mice and pufferfish, on the protein level we are also 92% compatible with chimpanzees but they are our current closest relative not our direct ancestors.


You're right, those facts are very interesting. However, it does not convince me that we came from the same origin, because the Bible says otherwise. That's ok, we can disagree. If the fact that we are 92% compatible with chimps is going to be used as evidence for evolution, then why haven't chimps evolved? I think this last question is a good cross-examination for the defense.

However, I must point out that you butchered the heck out of my name! :eek:

[Ian Duggan]

My point is that the things you have to accept as given in order to believe evolution are not qualitatively different than the things I have to accept in order to believe creation.
Surely in creation you have to accept as given... everything? I mean, where's the leeway for argument, or discussion or altering of theory? There is none, because it's 100% faith. All you can do to "prove" it, is reverse logic i.e. that seems far too unlikely to be chance / luck / evolution / whatever, so therefore it's God. Which, as I mentioned before, is logically unsound.

It's the difference between the two surely, theorem versus belief system?

And why a discussion between the relative merits of the two is rather pointless?

Which makes me wonder why I'm joining in actually.

:D

I'll bow out too on this note then, with great admiration that an Internet debate in this subject matter has stayed so pleasant.

[Chuck Lopez]

You're right, those facts are very interesting. However, it does not convince me that we came from the same origin, because the Bible says otherwise. That's ok, we can disagree.

However, I must point out that you butchered the heck out of my name! :eek:

agree to disagree FTW! :cool:

sorry about butchering the name :o

[Paul_Koskinen]

It will be very interesting to see how things unfold since we as a species are still evolving.
That's assuming we don't all blow up the place before hand.

:BB:

[Paul Neuhaus]

It will be very interesting to see how things unfold since we as a species are still evolving.
That's assuming we don't all blow up the place before hand.

:BB:
I'm pretty sure I know how things will unfold ;)

[Josh Kamins]

1. Where did the space for the universe come from? This is not relevant to the discussion, evolution and astrophysics are not related. You seem to have this assumption that because you believe in God, all science must be flawed. To answer it, it did not come from anywhere, most of space is nothingness.

2. Where did matter come from? Again completely unrelated. But perhaps from a singularity of energy. I might respond to this with, where did your god come from? Just because you don't understand the answer to this question doesn't mean its wrong, you just can't tell me the answer, thats all.

3. Where did the laws of the universe come from (gravity, inertia, etc.)? Their existence has nothing to do with evolution once again, and you also cannot really deny their existence. The laws of of the universe came from the scientist who discovered them. As far as these actual forces? These are basic physical principles which have to exist as far as we know. Gravity is still a bit debatable due to new discoveries in dark matter and possible other universes. Try to change one of these laws, everything in the universe would probably cease to exist, they therefore exist because they have to.

4. How did matter get so perfectly organized? It isn't perfectly organized and in fact the law of entropy tells us that it is headed toward chaos.

5. Where did the energy come from to do all the organizing? Once again, not related to this discussion. One current theory is two colliding dimensions created the energy through friction.

6. When, where, why, and how did life come from dead matter? Dead implies there was once life, I will say inanimate life. The answer this depends on what you consider life. Do you consider a single strand of DNA in an ocean life? Or is a protein structure life? What if the protein structure joined with another and then with fat to form a cell, is that life? Perhaps when it then gains the ability to make its own energy from light and water? Etc. Etc. Life isn't necessarily some special force within us.

7. When, where, why, and how did life learn to reproduce itself? Life doesn't learn to do anything.

8. With what did the first cell capable of sexual reproduction reproduce? Sexual reproduction is important because it creates variation within the genetic chain and therefore adaptation. Asexual reproduction keeps the genetic code constant, and is therefore inferior if some problem arises.

9. Why would any plant or animal want to reproduce more of its kind since this would only make more mouths to feed and decrease the chances of survival? (Does the individual have a drive to survive, or the species? How do you explain this?) Whoever reproduces most has more offsprings and therefore their genetic material survives and finds more generations. Therefore reproduction is the MOST selected for trait.

10. How can mutations (recombining of the genetic code) create any new, improved varieties? (Recombining English letters will never produce Chinese books.)
English letters cannot form chinese words because they are a different language. Genetic code only has a 4 letter alphabet, so its easy to rearrange. There are mutations (which I CAN DEFINITELY PROVE to you) some work, some don't because each word produces a different protein. Some are viable proteins made of a structure of amino acids that work together, some won't do stuff.


11. Is it possible that similarities in design between different animals prove a common Creator instead of a common ancestor? Anything is possible. But do dissimilarities prove uncommon Creators??

12. Natural selection only works with the genetic information available and tends only to keep a species stable. How would you explain the increasing complexity in the genetic code that must have occurred if evolution were true? This is just completely false. Natural selection leads to more complex species and does not keep a species stable. The genetic code did not get any new letters, the words just got longer.

13. When, where, why, and how did: a) Single-celled plants become multicelled? (Where are the two- and threecelled intermediates?) b) Single-celled animals evolve? c) Fish change to amphibians? d) Amphibians change to reptiles? e) Reptiles change to birds? (The lungs, bones, eyes, reproductive organs, heart, method of locomotion, body covering, etc., are all very different!) How did the intermediate forms live?
a) plants were never single celled
b)animals were.....

actually for this read my previous post about how amphibians formed from fish and you can see a clear evolution of species.



14. When, where, why, how, and from what did: a) Whales evolve? b) Sea horses evolve? c) Bats evolve? d) Eyes evolve? e) Ears evolve? f) Hair, skin, feathers, scales, nails, claws, etc., evolve?

I'm not going to try to explain the evolution of every single species that exists to prove that it works. The evolution of eyes is really cool though.



15. Which evolved first (how, and how long, did it work without the others)? a) The digestive system, the food to be digested, the appetite, the ability to find and eat the food, the digestive juices, or the body’s resistance to its own digestive juice (stomach, intestines, etc.)? b) The drive to reproduce or the ability to reproduce? c) The lungs, the mucus lining to protect them, the throat, or the perfect mixture of gases to be breathed into the lungs? d) DNA or RNA to carry the DNA message to cell parts? e) The termite or the flagella in its intestines that actually digest the cellulose? f) The plants or the insects that live on and pollinate the plants? g) The bones, ligaments, tendons, blood supply, or muscles to move the bones? h) The nervous system, repair system, or hormone system? i) The immune system or the need for it?

Again, this is silly. It took me years to learn all of this information, and obviously not all of it is available. Feel free to read a good biology or genetics book though.

[Zach Snyder]

Note: This is not directed personally at Josh, but at the theory in general.

This is reflective of my biggest problem with evolutionists. They attack creationists for rejecting science in favor of faith, yet they are just as faith-based as anyone. (Defining faith as belief in something that cannot be empirically and definitively proven using current scientific methods.) Not that it matters on the grand scale, but I know I'd be happier if they'd just admit this point.

there are holes in a lot of religions or beliefs. The common theme is that faith is used to fill in these holes.

if the bible's taken literally, and there were really two people (adam and eve) where the entire world was formed from, then how did they produce? Once they had a spawn of children, how did these children reproduce?

For what it's worth, i was attended a catholic school, and was a practicing catholic for 13 years, which is more than half my life. There came a time for me where there were a lot of questions and beliefs in the catholic religion that just didn't make sense for me. You also have people like Pope Leo X who offered indulgences (forgiveness of sins) to people who gave money to build a church.

One may say that this is just the human error factor, but the electing of a pope in the catholic religion is a very intricate practice, and the pope is supposed to be able to be inspired/communicate with the Holy Spirit.

Not to say that there isn't a higher being, but i believe that a lot of religions make believing more difficult than it actually is. I believing living a Christian life with good moral codes is more important than believing in a particular religion.

[Josh Kamins]

It will be very interesting to see how things unfold since we as a species are still evolving.
That's assuming we don't all blow up the place before hand.

:BB:

This is true, though I think for now modern medicine has halted evolution in humans, and perhaps reversed it. Before now, many diseases stopped people from reaching reproductive maturity, now you can be treated and still pass on the disease. In addition, more educated, and intelligent people are having less children these days unfortunately than the undereducated.


For the questions from others of why other species aren't evolving. I still have to ask, how do you know they aren't?

[Paul Neuhaus]

For the questions from others of why other species aren't evolving. I still have to ask, how do you know they aren't?
Because no one can prove to me that they are. Isn't science based on physical proof?

[Josh Kamins]

MRSA...methicillin resistant staphylococcus aureus. Or the Bacterial superbug these days you keep reading about...

We use antibacterial soap too much, people don't finish their antibiotic treatments, voila...years later we have people being infected with bacteria that has adapted and formed a resistance to our medicine. Thats evolution at its finest right there....

[davebeers]

MRSA...methicillin resistant staphylococcus aureus. Or the Bacterial superbug these days you keep reading about...

We use antibacterial soap too much, people don't finish their antibiotic treatments, voila...years later we have people being infected with bacteria that has adapted and formed a resistance to our medicine. Thats evolution at its finest right there....
that's micro-evolution, also known as natural selection. No one will deny that that exists.

Macro-evolution is different though...i'll let you explain it to us

[Scott Markowitz]

That's micro, not macro.

Anyhow, I think I'm bowing out too. I think we're all talking past one another. It was fun though.

(That, and I need to get back to my take-home final that's due in 12 hours. :disgust: )

[Paul Neuhaus]

MRSA...methicillin resistant staphylococcus aureus. Or the Bacterial superbug these days you keep reading about...

We use antibacterial soap too much, people don't finish their antibiotic treatments, voila...years later we have people being infected with bacteria that has adapted and formed a resistance to our medicine. Thats evolution at its finest right there....
I never questioned the evolution of bacteria. I questioned the evolution of apes, which is what the grade school science books would have you believe we evolved from.

Like I said, no one can prove to me that they ARE evolving, and science is based on physical proof.

[MalachiMcMullen]

First, be careful of how you generalize or stereotype. Over the course of history, many Christian leaders have committed horrible sins (such as you've listed) and given the rest of us a bad name.

No science, nor anything else for that matter, could ever destroy my faith.
Then let me commend you, if you really believe that science, no matter in what medium, cannot affect your faith then your ahead of quite a few people. I may not agree with what you believe but I nevertheless think it takes strength to stand on your beliefs whatever they may be so kudos to you:D

I know I was stereotyping but every religion, kings down to peasants have wanted to destroy one another simply for not believing the same thing. The last wars of religion were in the 15th century, shortly thereafter the Puritans and Protestants sailed the Atlantic and landed here. My only problem with religion is it changes over time and it changes from person to person, science is quantifiable, I can touch it, I can smell it, I can hear it and I can work with it, even prove and disprove it. Those facts comfort me more than believing a god(anyones god) just said let it be and it was. I have no problem with the people who practice religion, never did but I usually get misconstrued and misunderstood because I never get a chance to explain it as most of these conversations turn hostile before I get that chance.


Gonna take a crack at Jay's questions:
1. Evolution does not cover the universe, it covers life on earth, it does not claim to know how matter, the universe or the big bang made life. That being said, physics does have a theory. It's called "M Theory" or "Membrane Theory", it's an "evolution" of string theory. It states that there are countless multi-dimensional(1-11) universes floating somewhere(called the "multiverse"). When they collide the rippling "membranes" of the universes strike eachother numerous times causing massive explosions. This is a theory based on advanced mathematics.

2. Well, I don't know. Ask a school child and your likely to get "the big bang" as an answer though.

3. Really don't know that one, oops heres a gap but I wont say God.

4. Matter is all jumbled and random, part of M Theory states that all matter was uniform and placed evenly in the beginning, but gravity and the fact that atoms spin and vibrate eventually threw the uniformity off.

5. Read up on entropy, it has to do with black holes and the distribution of matter and energy. Things are always moving towards chaos, aka decay, so when they've decayed as far as possilbe, right down to atoms, quarks and then strings they are used again.

6. I don't know but again refuse to say God.

7-8. Well this will answer both 7 and 8. The first organisms reproduced a-sexually, they copied their own dna and split themselves in two. When, where and why? Don't know.

9. Both, it's instinctive. You wouldn't want to see the human race extinguished but you also wouldn't like to see yourself extinguished(dems big werds:D)

10. I don't think it can be likened to langauge like that, mutations occur spontaneously. If this is a question about how one species can become another then all I can say is that 2 members of different but similar species, human and chimps for example, had sex. That's a gross idea to us humans now but maybe not several million years ago and certainly not to many animals. Look at dogs and cats, endless breeds and then there are mutts who are odd mixes.

11. It could prove they have similar needs, monkeys need hands to use tools and feed themselves and so do we. Creationists seem to be offended by the idea that they are descended from monkeys, like apes are some disgusting beast incapable of thought or feeling and somehow lesser than man because man is god's favored creation.

12. Countless organisms in the beginning had countless different genetic codes, they just have to find their way to one another and BOOM, new code, new species and increased complexity.

13-14. Don't know but wont say God.

15. A single cell has a whole energy system that can be equated to the more complex human energy system. Whose to say that over time, as the organisms became more complex the systems within didn't diversify alongside? Bones are necessary for any land going creature, when sea creatures looked to land for food and shelter they started living in shallower and shallower waters until they eventually developed hardened tissue or cartalidge that acted as bone and eventually that grew into bones, to cope with not needing to swim as often or hunt in the same manner. The gases we breathe are perfect for us(well they used to be :D) because our lungs developed to breathe those gases.

Scientists didn't believe the earth was flat, people did because they couldn't imagine why or how.

What the earth was or where it sat was something different to alot of different people, it largely depended upon where you grew up and what religion you were.

Socrates talked about atoms and even coined the term long before biblical times, Plato and Aristotle went further and talked about the "elements" of earth, wind, water and fire.

Who or what said light was fixed in place? I've never heard that. That doesn't even make sense to a logical person, even 10,000 years ago before the egyptians. If it was fixed in place then simply put a deerskin over a fire and store the light for nightfall or catch it in bins:D

Winds don't blow in cyclones, they blow in waves up and down over the earth. When one wave skims the side of another you get cyclones and spirals.

And if the source of life and health had some evil in it? You cut the body and allow the evil to poor out.

The rest I haven't heard much about.

I love to argue, perhaps I'll cop out of this also. Like I said to Paul though, if you feel strong enough in your faith that science doesn't offend you or worry you and doesn't make you feel faith or religion is in danger then I commend you on your mental strength. Evolution vs. Creationism is a heated topic and I'm glad I was finally able to discuss it properly among gentlemen. I have a feeling alot of people read some of these posts and get offended, if they're mine then again sorry, that was not my intent.

-Zach out

[MalachiMcMullen]

:LOL: :LOL: I just realized that while writing my above ridiculously long post I was listening to a Matisyahu CD and up next in the playlist was Marylin Manson-Putting holes in happiness then Nazareth-Love Hurts then Static X-Destroy All:LOL: Just thought it was kinda funny:D and again,
Peace out
-Zach C.

[MarilynCMickey]

At the risk of being totally ostracized: I'm an atheist. I had a loving upbringing, centered around the church for the most part, and always had strong faith. My father is actually a pastor for the United Methodist Church. Events in my life around three years ago led me to start questioning that faith, and led to the eventual disintegration of a belief in anything other than myself.


Hi Charles,

If you're among practicing Christians (and I'd like to think you are), you will not be ostracized. Instead, we will pray for your broken spirirt - which is probably the real reason you're questioning God and your faith - along with those on this board who feel similarly. :)

I heard a very wise man once explain suffering and a possiblity of why we need to go through it. It is in the book "A Case for Faith" written by Lee Strobel - an author who methodically went the route of trying to disprove God exists only to be proven wrong through a deep, logical and somewhat scientific method of research.

I'm not much of a "thinker" type like many of the men here, but I do know that you will find Him when you look with all sincerity and "When you are in distress and all these things have happened to you, then in later days you will return to the lord your God and obey him...He will not abandon you..." Dt 4:30-31.

Many Blessings to you and yours.
M~

[anton axelsson]

I'll give you a pass on this one (not that I'm anyone important) but in the future, if you don't want to offend people, how about making your point without saying that people who have different viewpoints are "just plane ignorant"?

thanks for the pass..and like i said i dont mean to offend anyone im just stateing what my point of view is and simply talking about how i feel, to me it is just ignorant to believe in something u have never seen or touched beafore and say that god helps me lift weights and do strongman,but sorry i did not mean this in a bad way scott at all im just simply stateing how i feel... AND here is a quition for u believers in god almighty that helps u threw ur life... ok i have a 2 year old daughter that was born with C,P cerebral polissy she has failure to thrive and has been neer death more than ones she takes 8 diffrent medications just to get her threw the day without pain... SO if ur god was so great and almighty and such a perfict guy why has he created my daughter this way and lets her suffer every day why doese any child or humen have to face such oppsticles all men are created equall my ass so with that been said i do not believe in god im sorry to say

[Scott Markowitz]

You probably won't find this response very helpful, but...

God has His reasons which we may or may not understand. He may be using your daughter as a vessel to make you (or someone else) a better person (meaning that you have a different perspective on life than you would've had otherwise, perhaps appreciating your own health - who knows?). Or perhaps she will do something spectacular later in life. I don't have the answers, and I'm sorry that your daughter is suffering. I have a two-year-old daughter myself and I am thankful that she is healthy as can be. I can only imagine what you're going through with that. But that does not change the nature of God. I hope that you will come to discover whatever purpose it is and are able to know Him.

[RyanWilson]

I didn't throw anything in before, but I suppose I can speak my peace here -

I called myself an atheist during my teenage years. I called myself an agnostic during my 20s. Now, in my 30s, I can't label myself anything - I believe that there's a higher power, but I don't know what more to make of it than that. There's an internal conflict that tells me that there has to be more to the story, but my eternal skepticism prevents me from believing all of what is commonly adhered to. I can't say that I take the Bible literally at complete face value, primarily because logic tells me that it is one thing to have great faith, another to trust in the word of men from 2000 years ago when the world was a very different place. I'm torn between my beliefs and trust in science, but there are too many variables and too many unknowns to belive that science can eventually explian away everything. Now all I'm left with is a struggle to figure out what I believe in the most, though I do not believe science and religion to be as mutually exclusive as some people seem to think. I must admit, that the great hypocrisy that gets exposed for many "great Christians" turns me off a large amount to ever wanting to be part of anything organized, even if I do become completely confident in faith one day.

I do my best to live a good life, I believe that I act more "Christian" than many people I have met who claim to be, and I believe that, as long as there is a higher power, that I will be judged accordingly for what I have done in rectifying my bad actions of the past and working to always do what I know is right from now on. I am focusing on continually improving myself in my actions, thoughts, relationships and overall behavior because I know it is what is right - regardless of conviction solely in science or faith, that is a universal truth under any circumstances. Who knows what I will think in the coming years, but for now, even with the inner struggle, I'm at the greatest peace I've been in for my entire life. I'm content to a degree knowing that I'm not closed off to any possibility, and in time, I believe that I will grow in the direction that I was meant to head toward.

...And, if I do end up in Hell despite my best intentions to lead a good life, at least I know that Ted Haggard will be there to keep me company. Ain't no way he's ever going to a better place when his time is up :D

[Eric Todd]

I ask again, who do you think Mormon's worship? Really interested in hearing the answer to this one.
ET

Right. My copy of the Koran unfortunatley was given away a couple of weeks ago, but the Koran makes it quite clear that the Christian God and Allah are two different beings. The God of the Bible is a Trinity, Father, Son and Holy Spirit, not a single being. Even YAHWEH as worshipped by the Jews cannot be considered the same as Allah. It seems however that many Christians seem intent on saying they are the same gods, something no Koran-reading Muslim would readily agree with.

edit: For a Christian to say that Jesus is not God, would be to go against 2000 years of church history, also known as the heresy of Modalism. When you get to the bottom of the subject, if Jesus is not God (as in Mormonism, Islam, Jehovah's witnesses etc) then there really is no forgiveness of sin in the eyes of the biblical God. However if you don't think man has a sin problem, that changes things considerably.


This however is not a suitable debate for this forum, but I guess it could be taken to email or PMs. I'd prefer not though.

[Scott Markowitz]

Not to put words in Jono's mouth, but I'd imagine he'd rather discuss that one in private (if at all) for the same reasons. I know I would.

[Jonathan Macfarlane]

Not to put words in Jono's mouth, but I'd imagine he'd rather discuss that one in private (if at all) for the same reasons. I know I would.


I agree. As much as I believe in the importance of a literal 6 day creation for all Bible-believing Christians, I felt that debate was out of place in this thread. My stock answer for this is that the God of Biblical Christianity is the Father, Son and Holy Spirit, three existing as One. When you lose the true doctrine of God, you lose just about everything in Orthodox Christianity. I'll speak further by PM if anyone is interested.

It is unfortunate reading this thread that so many are scared of stating their beliefs for fear of being looked down on. I'll make no apologies for saying that faith in Jesus Christ is the only way in which God offers forgiveness of sin and eternal salvation. This stands in opposition to any belief that one's 'good deeds' will perhaps please God if there is a judgement after life on earth. These are not my words, but those of God's in the Scriptures.

That said, I haven't asked him if I can write this, but Stas is best defined as an Agnostic. I'd count him as one of my closest friends and we'd both go out of our ways if either of us required support. His lack of a Christian faith gives me no right to look down on him, this is true for all people.


With that, I'd like to add another Mark Driscoll clip. Antons recent comments reminded me of this. Mark is critiquing a Joel Osteen message and then talking about a true view of suffering in this world.

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I need to sleep right now, then I'm off to step into a very messy church situation tomorrow (as a sort of outside mediator sent by my church). I can't disclose too many details, but I'd ask for prayer from the believers here as this could land me (and cause further hurt for those hurt already) in hot water if I mess up. It involves a 'pastor' who has abused power in a big way and has ostracised dissenting believers from their families.

[Darin Heltemes]

I was brought up in a Christian home and baptized as a Christian. However, today, I'm a non believer. I suppose that makes me an Atheist to some extent, although I accept the fact that I cannot be anymore certain than the next person that there is or is not supernatural beings in the universe. I believe I am a good person and I live a fairly ethical life. Some of you may not like this, but my life actually improved once I abandoned God and my faith and took my life into my own hands (the story behind this isn't really appropriate for this thread). I attribute that to my success more than anything.
However, one thing that I will always honor is my respect for other religions (Christianity, Judaism, Buddhism, etc.) and their beliefs and I have always expected the same in return. I have my opinions, but generally keep them to myself (but I do slip on occasion, I am only human). There is nothing I dislike more than anyone discrediting another's beliefs for any reason. No one can know without a reasonable doubt that what they believe is the right way. That's why the word 'faith' exists.
I believe that one should always do what works for them and be respected for it, as long it doesn't involve a neglect for a fellow human's well-being. It is my belief (if there is a higher power), despite what any book may say, that no benevolent force in this universe will condemn you for being a good and kind person. If it does, than you were right not to worship it in the first place.

[Kellee_Rassau]

This implies that religion or a belief in a higher power is necessary to have a strong mind and soul, which I have to strongly disagree with.

I didn't mean to imply that one needs to be religious or believe in a higher power to be strong in any way. Spiritual people are not always religious or aligned to a particular theology. I am a practicing Buddhist and a Christian. I accept all other belief systems, including atheism and agnostic outlooks. Not to derail the thread unnecessarily, I just wanted to clarify that.
Spiritualism is very specific to the person in question, I believe it is a very personal and individual journey. Not necessarily a Christian one. Just saying, respectfully.

[JoAnn Hagadorn]

I tried to stay out of this... I'm not much of one for a debate. I absolutely believe that we all have the right to choose what religion to follow, what god to serve (or not serve), but I also know that there are consequences for those beliefs. It is clearly stated in the Bible that Jesus Christ is "the Way, the Truth, and the Life; and that no man shall come to the Father but through Him." So believe what you will, but Heaven and Hell are real, and you have a short time here on earth to determine where it is you will spend eternity.

I am FAR from being a perfect person. I am not religious. I am a wretched sinner who is blessed to be covered by grace and the forgiveness given to me by the sacrifice that Jesus Christ made on the cross. Christianity is not about going to church or being a "good person." None of us are free from sin. Christianity is a relationship with the one and only true and living God.

[Paul_Koskinen]

So believe what you will, but Heaven and Hell are real, and you have a short time here on earth to determine where it is you will spend eternity.

Of course Hell is real. Ever been to Toledo?

[Josh Kamins]

Christianity is not about going to church or being a "good person." None of us are free from sin. Christianity is a relationship with the one and only true and living God.

Thats the biggest problem I have with Christianity. I could never subscribe to a belief system where good people go to hell because they don't agree with or have never heard of the Christian religion. Where Ghandi, because he doesn't believe in your deity, is doomed to suffer for eternity. That itself offends me more than anything else.

I could spend my life helping people, giving everything I have to be a good person, helping orphans to succeed in life, giving all my organs to unfortunate people. However, because I do not have a connection with Jesus, I go to hell? I'm sorry but that really seems like a very selfish god to me.

[MalachiMcMullen]

Of course Hell is real. Ever been to Toledo?
Pshht, every wednesday:)

[Jonathan Macfarlane]

Just got home from a crazy evening and have to leave for work in 6 hours... but I have to ask a make a point through a question. I'll answer the PM's tomorrow night.

Imagine all the thoughts you've had over the last week. If you could somehow put those thoughts onto a DVD, then play it to a group of people, what would you do?


Could you sit there with a straight face? Would Ghandi sit there with a big smile on his face?


I'd be willing to bet that if a 'higher power' existed, he'd know those thoughts and everyone other one you've ever had too.

[Matthew White]

"To each man their own god, to each man their own way, but to all who walk this earth, the honorable path will always be recognized by all uniformly"--Matthew White

I'm not going to delve into the moral pool of people's opinions and own personal ethics, however, Wesley, put out your hand, and smack it with the other one! You're a bad bad man. ;) You started this, hahahaha. It did turn out to be quite the thread and get some people all mussed up. (as I'm sure the debate isn't over, I just wanted to point my finger and shake it at ya, hahaha)

[DaneGarreau]

Thats the biggest problem I have with Christianity. I could never subscribe to a belief system where good people go to hell because they don't agree with or have never heard of the Christian religion. Where Ghandi, because he doesn't believe in your deity, is doomed to suffer for eternity. That itself offends me more than anything else.

I could spend my life helping people, giving everything I have to be a good person, helping orphans to succeed in life, giving all my organs to unfortunate people. However, because I do not have a connection with Jesus, I go to hell? I'm sorry but that really seems like a very selfish god to me.

To be fair, what your refering to is Fundamentalist Christianity.
One of the 5 beliefs of fundamentalism is that the Bible is the inarant word of God, therefor, everything in it is absolutly true(like when God supposidly told David to kill women and children in a neihboring town). The majority of evangelicals are fundamentalists at the core, so this is usually the only side of Christianity that is seen; however, there are plenty of denominations that don't believe in Hell(episcopalians, at least the ones in GA).

In reality, this is the reason for all the splits in the Christian religion. Is the Word of God literal, figurative? Is it meant in a historical context or does the meaning change as the culture does? Not to mention all the books that were left out of the Bible by the Catholic counsils centuries ago.

Just food for thought. Figured the evangelical side of Christianity gets enough airtime, and the otherside should get some as well.... As to which side is correct, I can't be certain.

[Steve Ryan]

This conversation sucks

[Corey DuCharme]

One thing that has helped me with my religious beliefs was to try and understand the true "historical Jesus". I was never a big proponent of the whole "everyone’s going to hell but me" theory. I learned that Jesus was even more forgiving than I ever thought, and the mesage in his sermons was "grace" an all accepting all forgiving concept. All religions condemn each other to hell(it’s going to be pretty full if everyone’s right), and I personally believe that people who talk more about hell than heaven miss the point of Christianity. Many of you have very dark opinions of Christianity (which I respect) but they make me feel very sorry that you are living your life thinking about people burning in hell.


Haha!! You're right about all the brimstone and fire talk being pretty dark. Many pastors avoid the subject like the plague.

It should not be a focus but it does deserve consideration. To paraphrase Jesus (who talked about hell a lot) "the road to hell is wide and the path to heaven is narrow."

Thats the biggest problem I have with Christianity. I could never subscribe to a belief system where good people go to hell because they don't agree with or have never heard of the Christian religion. Where Ghandi, because he doesn't believe in your deity, is doomed to suffer for eternity. That itself offends me more than anything else.

I could spend my life helping people, giving everything I have to be a good person, helping orphans to succeed in life, giving all my organs to unfortunate people. However, because I do not have a connection with Jesus, I go to hell? I'm sorry but that really seems like a very selfish god to me.

Doesn't seem fair does it? I struggle with that concept at times. Paul said, "All fall short of the glory of God and are sinners." Ghandi, rapists, you, me, all. That's what the whole Jesus thing is about. He was perfect, took our punishment for us and offered forgiveness as a gift of love, having nothing to do with being a good person or doing good deeds.

By rejecting Jesus, people in essence set themselves up as their own gods, choosing right and wrong for themselves and living to please themselves. We all do it to some extent, it's in our nature.

[Paul Neuhaus]

Doesn't seem fair does it? I struggle with that concept at times. Paul said, "All fall short of the glory of God and are sinners." Ghandi, rapists, you, me, all. That's what the whole Jesus thing is about. He was perfect, took our punishment for us and offered forgiveness as a gift of love, having nothing to do with being a good person or doing good deeds.


You're right, and it doesn't have to seem fair. Parents make children do things and follow rules that they don't think are fair. But, that doesn't matter because the parents know what is best for their children. I don't question God's fairness of rules, because I have faith that He knows what is best for me.

Remember the story of the other 2 criminals who were being crucified next to Jesus? One of the criminals cried out to Jesus as they were hanging from their crosses and asked that He not forget him. Jesus replied "today you will be with me in Paradise". Now some people may think it's not fair that a criminal sentenced to death can go to Heaven by putting his faith in Jesus just before dying, but who are we to question this? Honestly, I find comfort in knowing that the condemned man went to Heaven in such a manner. It's a perfect display of how EASY it is for us to get to Heaven, by accepting the free gift of salvation through Jesus, rather than through good deeds and works. This proves that we can not "earn" our way into Heaven. All we have to do is acknowledge Him and ask for forgiveness.

[Paul_Koskinen]

By rejecting Jesus, people in essence set themselves up as their own gods, choosing right and wrong for themselves and living to please themselves. We all do it to some extent, it's in our nature.

I find it hard to believe that self-control and humility means I think I'm a god or even act like one. Everyone is equal, we just have different circumstances.
If I make a mistake and perform poorly at a strongman competition it's up to me to re-evaluate my training etc. If I'm successful then it's because I've done something right. There's no reason to call upon god or whatever. I'm almost sure he/she has alot of things better to do.

[Michael Ambrose]

You're right, and it doesn't have to seem fair. Parents make children do things and follow rules that they don't think are fair. But, that doesn't matter because the parents know what is best for their children. I don't question God's fairness of rules, because I have faith that He knows what is best for me.

Remember the story of the other 2 criminals who were being crucified next to Jesus? One of the criminals cried out to Jesus as they were hanging from their crosses and asked that He not forget him. Jesus replied "today you will be with me in Paradise". Now some people may think it's not fair that a criminal sentenced to death can go to Heaven by putting his faith in Jesus just before dying, but who are we to question this? Honestly, I find comfort in knowing that the condemned man went to Heaven in such a manner. It's a perfect display of how EASY it is for us to get to Heaven, by accepting the free gift of salvation through Jesus, rather than through good deeds and works. This proves that we can not "earn" our way into Heaven. All we have to do is acknowledge Him and ask for forgiveness.

Speaking of God and children... if God created ALL of mankind then why would he only reveal himself to a small portion of 'his (let's get into the sexist end of that please) children' (aka - what I shall refer to to as the 'western world' of the time). There are/were far more humans living in the 'eastern world who follow Hinduism, Buddism, Taoism, etc (Not to mention all the folks here in North and SOuth America). Why would God not also reveal himself to these children? So God wanted millions and millions of his children to 'perish' into hell or purgatory or nothingness for the hundreds of years that the far east and 'new world' had no contact with the 'west'? Why do most religions have the arrogant belief that THEIRS is the only right one and all others are flat out wrong or flawed? Guess what folks, I do not care what religion you believe in or follow, the truth is there is only one that is 'right' or more plainy put, there is only one truth to the matter of divinity and religion (Ironically that is a Daoist religious concept).

It astounds my how people can not step back and think that 'God' is not unlike an elephant who has been placed in front of 5 blind people. Each person gets to touch one part; tusk, tail, side, ear and leg. They are each told, you have to now describe 'God' to the others. Each one is vehement in his description of 'God' and certain that they are right and the others are wrong. In fact, they are all correct but until someone steps back and 'sees' the bigger picture, one can not hope to even come to being close to knowing what 'God' truly is.

I was raised a Catholic. The thieves on the cross story always caused an ethical problem for me. When taken literally as you seem to be implying here, you are given a 'green light to be the most vile human on the planet for your whole life (and I am assuming that you know what you are doing is wrong as opposed to someone who truly does not have the mental capacity for that distinction), capable of being saved as you take your last breath and say 'forgive me'. That's no 'acceptance of God' but rather a fear of 'eternal suffering' at play. That gives every criminal a moral green light to do as they please. IMO... redemption (if it exists as being discussed) comes from your actions throughout life. If you have done wrong, you know what you must do to make amends for it. You do not need to tell a priest, reverend or even God (because he should already know) that you are sorry and are ready to 'walk the right path'. Again your comment... "It's a perfect display of how EASY it is for us to get to Heaven, by accepting the free gift of salvation through Jesus, rather than through good deeds and works." You just made my point. You are saying that what you do does not matter, it's what you say. And imo... the 'Do as I say not as I do' model is the ultimate in hypocricy. This is one story that should not be taken literally imo.

End of rant...

[Paul Neuhaus]

So God wanted millions and millions of his children to 'perish' into hell or purgatory or nothingness for the hundreds of years that the far east and 'new world' had no contact with the 'west'?
No, it even says in the Bible that God wants everyone to come to repentance and be saved.
Why do most religions have the arrogant belief that THEIRS is the only right one and all others are flat out wrong or flawed?
I have no idea. You've never heard me make an arrogant attack on anyone else's beliefs.

I was raised a Catholic. The thieves on the cross story always caused an ethical problem for me. When taken literally as you seem to be implying here, you are given a 'green light to be the most vile human on the planet for your whole life (and I am assuming that you know what you are doing is wrong as opposed to someone who truly does not have the mental capacity for that distinction), capable of being saved as you take your last breath and say 'forgive me'. That's no 'acceptance of God' but rather a fear of 'eternal suffering' at play. That gives every criminal a moral green light to do as they please. IMO... redemption (if it exists as being discussed) comes from your actions throughout life. If you have done wrong, you know what you must do to make amends for it. You do not need to tell a priest, reverend or even God (because he should already know) that you are sorry and are ready to 'walk the right path'. Again your comment... "It's a perfect display of how EASY it is for us to get to Heaven, by accepting the free gift of salvation through Jesus, rather than through good deeds and works." You just made my point. You are saying that what you do does not matter, it's what you say. And imo... the 'Do as I say not as I do' model is the ultimate in hypocricy. This is one story that should not be taken literally imo.


Never once did I say it's OK to do as you please. As Christians, we are called upon to live by a particular set of moral values. BUT, this is not what saves us. All that can save you is putting your faith in Jesus. Doing good deeds does not get you into Heaven. If you'd like, I could also quote from the book of 1Timothy where it basically says that everyone who puts their faith in Christ will go to Heaven, but we will also be judged for the good or bad things we've done once we get there and it will effect our reward in Heaven.

[Michael Ambrose]

No, it even says in the Bible that God wants everyone to come to repentance and be saved.

I have no idea. You've never heard me make an arrogant attack on anyone else's beliefs.

Item #1 - That sounds ripe for some over the edge people to excuse mass genocide of 'non-believers'. Think about that for a minute. We're the chosen ones... you aren't. Human arrogance at its worst.

Item #2 - You misread me there Paul. That was NOT directed at you. It was a generalization towards most religions. The Catholics think they are right, so do the Mormons, the Evangelicals, the Hindu's, insert a religion here... Rarely do you hear them speaking of what they have in common.

[Paul Neuhaus]

Item #1 - That sounds ripe for some over the edge people to excuse mass genocide of 'non-believers'. Think about that for a minute. We're the chosen ones... you aren't. Human arrogance at its worst.

Item #2 - You misread me there Paul. That was NOT directed at you. It was a generalization towards most religions. The Catholics think they are right, so do the Mormons, the Evangelicals, the Hindu's, insert a religion here... Rarely do you hear them speaking of what they have in common.
#1 I guess that's one of those things that I just have to accept not understanding.
#2 You're right, and it's really sad. What I like about our church is that we accept anyone who walks in the door, no matter where they've come from. We actually reach out to other churches in the community, even a local Buddhist church, to live in harmony because that's what the Bible commands us to do. It's those "judgemental and arrogant" people who give the rest of us a bad name. God even commands us not to judge others, so I will never understand why other churches do that, and therefor give the community a tainted view of churches.

[Barney Shannon]

Am I the only one enjoying standing on the sideline and watching the Atheist and Christian Fundamentalists duke it out? :EL:

[Jared Alden]

The Very First Post of this Thread!

I don't intend for anyone to debate religious beliefs, whats the right and wrong religion,I hope everyone can be open to "to each his own" ...

So why are we fighting/debating everyone?

[Lesley Gardiner]

Am I the only one enjoying standing on the sideline and watching the Atheist and Christian Fundamentalists duke it out? :EL: Nope, I've been loving this thread. Very interesting.

[Steve Krivoshik]

No, it even says in the Bible that God wants everyone to come to repentance and be saved.

I have no idea. You've never heard me make an arrogant attack on anyone else's beliefs.

Never once did I say it's OK to do as you please. As Christians, we are called upon to live by a particular set of moral values. BUT, this is not what saves us. All that can save you is putting your faith in Jesus. Doing good deeds does not get you into Heaven. If you'd like, I could also quote from the book of 1Timothy where it basically says that everyone who puts their faith in Christ will go to Heaven, but we will also be judged for the good or bad things we've done once we get there and it will effect our reward in Heaven.


Well put Paul

[Chuck Lopez]

I find it hard to believe that self-control and humility means I think I'm a god or even act like one. Everyone is equal, we just have different circumstances.
If I make a mistake and perform poorly at a strongman competition it's up to me to re-evaluate my training etc. If I'm successful then it's because I've done something right. There's no reason to call upon god or whatever. I'm almost sure he/she has alot of things better to do.

I tend to agree with this mindset, remeber not everyone even believes in Heaven so in doing good works some people aren't necessarily trying to appease God (which I don't think is the best of reasons to do good works), they're just doing it for the sake of being good.

[Paul Rogers]

Just enjoy life as it has been given to you. We will all find out someday what is real and what is not.

[Barney Shannon]

BTW, my nephew Matt is an Atheist. So .. what do I buy the kid for Christmas? :)

[Josh Kamins]

BTW, my nephew Matt is an Atheist. So .. what do I buy the kid for Christmas? :)
An Air Conditioner?

[Jay Hagadorn]

O.K. I had bowed out of this disscussion because I did not want to "debate" nor do I now. I would however like to offer a biblical answer to many questions that have been sent via PM to me or have been unanswered on this thread. Mind you the following posts are a "biblical" perspective, I am not pointing any fingers nor am I saying I am better than anyone. As a matter of fact, I am a BIG TIME SINNER! But I know Jesus, and His grace is sufficient. He did an awesome supernatural heart surgery to me several years ago, and I'll never be the same...

I will separate each "issue" out in a seperate post...

[Jay Hagadorn]

Suffering<o>
</o>
"Why is there suffering? That proves there is no ‘loving’ God."

Study the soil for a moment. It naturally produces weeds. No one plants them; no one waters them. They even stubbornly push through cracks of a dry sidewalk. Millions of useless weeds sprout like there’s no tomorrow, strangling our crops and ruining our lawns. Pull them out by the roots, and there will be more tomorrow. They are nothing but a curse!

Consider how much of the earth is uninhabitable. There are millions of square miles of barren deserts in <st1>Africa</st1> and other parts of the world. Most of <st1:country-region w:st="on"><st1>Australia</st1></st1:country-region> is nothing but miles and miles of useless desolate land. Not only that, but the earth is constantly shaken with massive earthquakes. Its shores are lashed with hurricanes; tornadoes rip through creation with incredible fury; devastating floods soak the land; and terrible droughts parch the soil. Sharks, tigers, lions, snakes, spiders, and disease-carrying mosquitoes attack humanity and suck its life’s blood.

The earth’s inhabitants are afflicted with disease, pain, suffering, and death. Think of how many people are plagued with cancer, Alzheimer’s, multiple sclerosis, heart disease, emphysema, Parkinson’s, and a number of other debilitating illnesses. Consider all the children with leukemia, or people born with crippling diseases or without the mental capability to even feed themselves. All these things should convince thinking minds that something is radically wrong. Did God blow it when He created humanity? What sort of tyrant must our Creator be if this was His master plan?

Sadly, many use the issue of suffering as an excuse to reject any thought of God, when its existence is the very reason we should accept Him. Suffering stands as terrible testimony to the truth of the explanation given by the Word of God. But how can we know that the Bible is true? Simply by studying the prophecies of Matthew 24, Luke 21, and 2 Timothy 3. A few minutes of openhearted inspection will convince any honest skeptic that this is no ordinary book. It is the supernatural testament of our Creator about why there is suffering...and what we can do about it.

The Bible tells us that God cursed the earth because of Adam’s transgression. Weeds are a curse. So is disease. Sin and suffering cannot be separated. The Scriptures inform us that we live in a fallen creation. In the beginning, God created man perfect, and he lived in a perfect world without suffering. It was heaven on earth. When sin came into the world, death and misery came with it. Those who understand the message of Holy Scripture eagerly await a new heaven and a new earth "wherein dwells righteous-ness." In that coming Kingdom there will be no more pain, suffering, disease, or death. We are told that no eye has ever seen, nor has any ear heard, neither has any man’s mind ever imagined the wonderful things that God has in store for those who love Him (1 Corinthians 2:9).

Think for a moment what it would be like if food grew with the fervor of weeds. Consider how wonderful it would be if the deserts became incredibly fertile, if creation stopped devouring humanity. Imagine if the weather worked for us instead of against us, if disease completely disappeared, if pain was a thing of the past, if death was no more.

The dilemma is that we are like a child whose insatiable appetite for chocolate has caused his face to break out with ugly sores. He looks in the mirror and sees a sight that makes him depressed. But instead of giving up his beloved chocolate, he consoles himself by stuffing more into his mouth. Yet, the source of his pleasure is actually the cause of his suffering. The whole face of the earth is nothing but ugly sores of suffering. Everywhere we look we see unspeakable pain. But instead of believing God’s explanation and asking Him to forgive us and change our appetite, we run deeper into sin’s sweet embrace. There we find solace in its temporal pleasures, thus intensifying our pain, both in this life and in the life to come.

[Jay Hagadorn]

Religion<o>
</o>

"Why are there so many denominations?"

In the early 1500s, a German monk named Martin Luther was so conscious of his sins that he spent up to six hours in the confessional. Through study of the Scriptures he found that salvation didn’t come through anything he did, but simply through trusting in the finished work of the cross of Jesus Christ. He listed the contradictions between what the Scriptures said and what his church taught, and nailed his "95 Theses" to the church door in <st1><st1:city w:st="on">Wittenberg</st1:city>, <st1:country-region w:st="on">Germany</st1:country-region></st1>. Martin Luther became the first to "protest" against the Roman church, and thus he became the father of the Protestant church.

Since that split, there have been many disagreements about how much water one should baptize with, how to sing what and why, who should govern who, etc., causing thousands of splinter groups. Many of these groups are convinced that they alone are right. These have become known as Protestant "denominations."

Despite the confusion, these churches subscribe to certain foundational beliefs such as the deity, death, burial, and resurrection of Jesus Christ. The Bible says, "The foundation of God stands sure, having this seal, The Lord knows them that are his" (2 Timothy 2:19). Thomas Jefferson once wrote of a preacher, Richard Mote, who "exclaimed aloud to his congregation that he did not believe there was a Quaker, Presbyterian, Methodist, or Baptist in heaven, having paused to give his hearers time to stare and to wonder. He added that, in heaven, God knew no distinctions."

"Why are there so many different religions?"<o></o>

It has been well said that "religion" is man’s way of trying to deal with his guilt. Different religions have different ways of attempting to rid their adherents of sin and its consequences. They fast, pray, deny themselves legitimate pleasures, or chasten themselves, often to a point of inflicting pain. They do this because they have a concept of what they think God (or "the gods") is like, so they seek to establish their own righteousness, being "ignorant of God’s righteousness." The Good News of the Christian faith is that no one need suffer the pains of religious works. Christ’s blood can cleanse our conscience from the "dead works" of religion (Hebrews 9:14). Jesus took our punishment upon Himself, and He is the only One who can save us from sin and death. See Acts 4:12 and John 14:6.<o></o>

"Why is Christianity better than other religions?"<o></o>

In all major religions, the followers strive to rid themselves of sin through various practices. They may pray in a prescribed way, do various good works, deny themselves legitimate sexual pleasure, follow dietary restrictions, lie on beds of nails, etc. The uniqueness of Jesus is shown in His statement, "The Son of Man has power on earth to forgive sins." No other religious leader has ever made this claim. Jesus Christ alone can wash away every sin anyone has ever committed, because of what He did on the cross. By paying the penalty for our sin, He can release us from the torture of guilt. We cannot do anything in the way of religious works to wash away our sins. Forgiveness is a free gift of God (Ephesians 2:8,9). <o></o>

[Jay Hagadorn]

Bible

<o></o>

"Christians can’t use “circular reasoning” by trying to prove the Bible by quoting from the Bible!"<o></o>

The "circular reasoning" argument is absurd. That’s like saying you can’t prove that the President lives in the White House by looking intothe White House. It is looking into the White House that will provide the necessary proof. The fulfilled prophecies, the amazing consistency, and the many scientific statements of the Bible prove it to be the Word of God. They provide evidence that it is supernatural in origin. <o></o>

"Didn’t men write the Bible?" <o></o>

Absolutely. When you write a letter, do you write the letter, or does the pen? Obviously you do; the pen is merely the instrument you use. God used men as instruments to write His "letter" to humanity. They ranged from kings to common fishermen, but the 66 books of the Bible were all given by inspiration of God. Proof that this Book is supernatural can been seen with a quick study of its prophecies<o></o>

"I read the Bible and it’s just a book of fairy tales?"<o></o>

I call your bluff "What is the thread of continuity that runs through the Bible—the consistent theme from the Old Testament through the New Testament. Still trying to guess? The Old Testament was God’s promise that He would destroy death. The New Testament tells how He did it. Have you kept the Ten Commandements? 1) Don’t have any God’s before Him 2) Don’t make any graven images 3) Don’t use His name in vain 4) Remember the Sabbath 5) Honor your father and mother 6) Don’t kill 7) Don’t commit adultery 8) Don’t steal 9) Don’t lie 10) Don’t covet. If anyone considers themselves “good” they should have never have committed any of these… <o></o>

[Jay Hagadorn]

Excuses

<o></o>

"I was once a born-again Christian. Now I believe it’s all rubbish!"<o></o>

When a person maintains that he was once a Christian, but came to his senses, he is saying that he once knew the Lord (see John 17:3). "Did you know the Lord? You’re probably thinking, "I thought I did!" If you don’t know so, then you probably didn’t." If you didn’t know the Lord you were never born again of the Spirit, (Christian) (1 John 5:11–13,20). <o></o>

The Bible speaks of false conversion, in which a "stony ground" hearer receives the Word with joy and gladness. Then, in a time of tribulation, temptation, and persecution, falls away. <o></o>

“There is no absolute truth. You can’t be sure of anything!”<o></o>

Those who say that there are no absolutes are often very adamant about their belief. If you say that you are absolutely sure, then you are wrong because your own statement is an absolute. If you are not 100 percent sure, then there is a chance that you are wrong and you are risking your eternal salvation by trusting in a wrong belief. God tells us that there is an objective, absolute truth that is not subject to man’s interpretations or whims, on which we can base our eternity. That truth is the Word of God (John 17:7).<o></o>

[Jay Hagadorn]

God

<o></o>

"God told Joshua to kill every man, woman, and child, and He killed masses of people in Revelation. If that’s your ‘God of love,’ I want nothing to do with Him!"<o></o>

God didn’t confine His wrath to the Canaanites, or to those mentioned in Revelation. He proclaimed the death sentence upon the whole of humanity. We will all die because we have broken God’s Law. Every one of us is waiting on death row. Instead of standing in moral judgment over Almighty God, we need to judge ourselves according to the Law of God. We will find that we have a multitude of sins and therefore are deserving of punishment. Yet God, out of love, paid the penalty for our sin so we would not have to.<o></o>

"If God is a God of love, why hasn’t He dealt with evil?"<o></o>

In Dr. Robert Morey’s book The New Atheism and the Erosion of Freedom, he talks with an atheist about this issue. The atheist assumes that everything is relative, and there are no absolutes (he is absolutely sure of that). Morey replies that the first thing an atheist must do is prove the existence of evil. By what process can an atheist identify evil? He must have a universal absolute to do so. Without an absolute reference point for "good" (which only God can provide), no one can identify what is good or evil. Thus without the existence of God, there is no "evil" or "good" in an absolute sense. Everything is relative. The problem of evil does not negate the existence of God. It actually requires it. <o></o>

Many assume that because evil still exists today, God has not dealt with it. How can atheists assume that God has not already solved the problem of evil in such a way that neither His goodness nor omnipotence is limited? On what grounds do they limit what God can and cannot do to solve the problem? God has already solved the problem of evil. And He did it in a way in which He did not contradict His nature or the nature of man. We assume God will solve the problem of evil in one single act. But why can’t He deal with evil in a progressive way? Can’t He deal with it throughout time as we know it, and then bring it to the climax on the Day of Judgment? <o></o>

God sent His Son to die on the cross in order to solve the problem of evil. Christ atoned for evil and secured the eventual removal of all evil from the earth. One day evil will be quarantined in one spot called "hell." Then there will be a perfect world devoid of all evil. If God declared that all evil would, at this moment, cease to exist, you and I and all of humanity would go up in a puff of smoke. Divine judgment demands that sin be punished. <o></o>

"If God is perfect, why did He make an imperfect creation?"

The Bible tells us that the Genesis creation was "good." There was no sin and therefore no suffering or death. Why then did God give Adam and Eve the ability to sin, knowing full well that they would sin and bring death and pain to the human race? Some believe that if Adam had been created without the ability to chose, then he would have been a "robot." A father cannot make his children love him. They choose to love him because they have a free will. Others point out that humanity would never have seen the depth of the love of God, as displayed in the cross, unless Adam had sinned, and that fact could be one reason why God allowed sin to enter the world.

"My God would never create hell."

Those who say that are right: their "god" would never create hell, because he couldn’t. He doesn’t exist. He is a figment of their imagination, a god they have created to suit themselves. It’s called "idolatry," and it’s the oldest sin in the Book. Idolaters will not inherit the <st1><st1>kingdom</st1> of <st1>God</st1></st1>. The one true God, however, could and did create hell for those who reject His mercy. They will reap His just wrath.

The First Commandment says, ‘You shall have no other gods before <st1:state w:st="on"><st1>Me.'</st1></st1:state> That proves He isn’t the only God!"<o></o>

That’s true. Man has always made false gods. An old adage says, "God created man in His own image, and man has been returning the favor ever since." Hindus have millions of gods. Sometimes gods are made of wood or stone, other times man makes up a god in his mind. Whatever the case, making a god to suit yourself is called "idolatry," and is a transgression of both the First and Second of the Ten Commandments. God states in the Old Testament, “Before Me and after Me, I have known no other gods.”<o></o>

"Why does God allow evil?"<o></o>

Why does God allow evil men and women to live? Should He instead kill them before they do evil deeds? Should He judge murderers and rapists now? What about thieves and liars, adulterers, fornicators, those who lust, and those who hate? If God judged evil today, all unconverted men and women would perish under His wrath. Thank God that He is patiently waiting for them to turn to the Savior and be saved from His wrath.<o></o>

[Jay Hagadorn]

Hypocrisy<o></o>

<o></o>

"The church is full of hypocrites." <o></o>

Hypocrites may show up at a church building every Sunday, but there are no hypocrites in the Church (Christ’s body). Hypocrite comes from the Greek word for "actor," or pretender. Hypocrisy is "the practice of professing beliefs, feelings, or virtues that one does not hold." <o></o>

The Church is made up of true believers; hypocrites are "pretenders" who sit among God’s people. God knows those who love Him, and the Bible warns that He will sort out the true converts from the false on the Day of Judgment. All hypocrites will end up in hell.<o></o>

"Religion has caused more wars than anything else in history."<o></o>

It is true that man has used religion for political gain. Nazi Germany had "God with us" engraved in German on the belts of Nazi soldiers. <st1:country-region w:st="on"><st1>America</st1></st1:country-region> said, "Praise the Lord and pass the ammunition." The law may even allow you to start the Christian Nazi Party, if you so desire. You can become a "reverend" for a few dollars through the tabloid classifieds and then further your political agenda with the world’s blessing, no matter how much it smears the name of Christ. <o></o>

Jesus tells us in John 16:2,3 that there will be some who, in their error, commit atrocities and murder in the name of God: "The time is coming that whosoever kills you will think that he does God service." However, He informs us that these are not true believers: "And these things will they do to you, because they have not known the Father, nor me." (See also 1 John 3:15.) <o></o>

Jesus told His followers to love their enemies. So if a man puts a knife into someone’s back in the name of Christianity, something obviously isn’t right. If we human beings can detect it, how much more will God? He will deal with it on Judgment Day. <o></o>

"I know that the Lord is always on the side of right. But it is my constant
anxiety and prayer that I—and this nation—should be on the Lord’s side."
-Abraham Lincoln<o></o>

[Chris Hickson]

FYI: I am eastern romanian byzantine catholic.....kinda like greek ortho(i can go there if there is none otheres around)

which is a very trinitarian based religion that being the main defference beteen the roman catholic, trinitarian meaning more ephasis put on the holy spirt, god and jesus, not hust on of them.

[Jay Hagadorn]

Jesus Christ<o></o><o></o>

"It’s intolerant to say that Jesus is the only way to God!"<o></o>

Jesus is the One who said that He is the only way to the Father. For Christians to say that there are other ways to find peace with God is to bear false testimony. In one sweeping statement, Jesus discards all other religions as a means of finding forgiveness of sins. This agrees with other Scriptures: "Neither is there salvation in any other: for there is no other name under heaven given among men, whereby we must be saved" (Acts 4:12), and "For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus" (1 Timothy 2:5).<o></o>

"Will people who have never heard the gospel all go to hell because they haven’t heard about Jesus Christ?"

No one will go to hell because they haven’t heard of Jesus Christ. The heathen will go to hell for murder, rape, adultery, lust, theft, lying, etc. Sin is not failing to hear the gospel. Rather, "sin is the transgression of the Law" (1 John 3:4).

[Jay Hagadorn]

Judging / Judgment<o></o>

<o></o>
"Could you be wrong in your claims about Judgment Day and the existence of hell?"<o></o>

The existence of hell and the surety of the judgment are not the claims of fallible man. The Bible is the source of the claim, and it is utterly infallible. When someone becomes a Christian, he is admitting that he was in the wrong, and that God is justified in His declarations that we have sinned against Him. <o></o>

However, let’s surmise for a moment that there is no Judgment Day and no hell. That would mean that the Bible is a huge hoax, in which more than forty authors collaborated (over a period of 3,000 years) to produce a document revealing God’s character as "just." They portrayed Him as a just judge, who warned that He would eventually punish murderers, rapists, liars, thieves, adulterers, etc. Each of those writers (who professed to be godly) therefore bore false witness, transgressing the very commandments they claimed to be true. <o></o>

It would mean that Jesus Christ was a liar, and that all the claims He made about the reality of judgment were there-fore false. It would also mean that He gave His life in vain, as did multitudes of martyrs who have given their lives for the cause of Christ. Add to that the thought that if there is no ultimate justice, it means that the Creator of all things is unjust—that He sees murder and rape and couldn’t care less, making Him worse than a corrupt human judge who refuses to bring criminals to justice. <o></o>

Here’s the good news, though, if there is no hell: You won’t know a thing after you die. It will be the end. No heaven, no hell. Just nothing. You won’t even realize that it’s good news. <o></o>

Here’s the bad news if the Bible is right and that there is eternal justice: You will find yourself standing before the judgment throne of a holy God, who has seen every sin you have ever committed. Think of it. A holy and perfect Creator has seen your thought-life and every secret sin you have ever committed. You have a multitude of sins, and God must by nature carry out justice. Ask Him to remind you of the sins of your youth. Ask Him to bring to remembrance your secret sexual sins, the lies, the gossip, and other idle words. You may have forgotten your past sins, but God hasn’t. Hell will be your just desert (exactly what you deserve), and you will have no one to blame but yourself. This is the claim of the Bible. If you don’t believe it, it is still true. It will still happen. <o></o>

Yet, there is good news—incredibly good news. We deserve judgment, but God offers us mercy through the cross. He paid our fine so that we could leave the courtroom. He destroyed the power of the grave for all who obey Him. Simply obey the gospel, and live. By doing that you will find out for yourself that the gospel is indeed the "gospel truth." Jesus said that if you obey Him, you will know the truth, and the truth will make you free (see John 8:31,32). <o></o>
<o></o>

[Jay Hagadorn]

Pride<o></o><o></o>

"Man is the master of his own destiny!"

If man is in total control of his future, then he should at least be in control of his own body. Instead, he is subject to involuntary yawning, sneezing, breathing, swallowing, sleeping, salivating, dreaming, blinking, and thinking. He can’t even control hair and nail growth. He automatically does these things, irrespective of his will. God has set his body in motion and there is little he can do about it. He also has minimal control over his daily bodily functions. His kidneys, bladder, intestines, heart, liver, lungs, etc., work independently of his will. It is ludicrous to say that man controls his future when he has trouble predicting the stock market, political outcomes, earthquakes, and even the weather, let alone having control over these things.

[Jay Hagadorn]

Relativism<o></o><o></o>

“There is no absolute truth. You can’t be sure of anything!”<o></o>

Those who say that there are no absolutes are often very adamant about their belief. If they say that they are absolutely sure, then they are wrong because their own statement is an absolute. If they are not 100 percent sure, then there is a chance that they are wrong and they are risking their eternal salvation by trusting in a wrong belief. God tells us that there is an objective, absolute truth that is not subject to man’s interpretations or whims, on which we can base our eternity. That truth is the Word of God (John 17:7).<o></o>

[Paul_Koskinen]

This is the exact reason why I stay away from this type of discussion in my everyday life. Too often there are people who think if they say more and say it louder then they must be right. I don't need or deserve any reasons why you practice your faith.
Frankly I have a hard time reading exessively long posts.
If some one can send me a copy of "Theology For Dummies" that would be a better use of my time.

[Jay Hagadorn]

Self-righteousness<o></o><o></o>

"Do you think that Christians are better than non-Christians?" <o></o>

The Christian is no better than a non-Christian, but he is infinitely better off. It is like two men on a plane, one of whom is wearing a parachute while the other is not. Neither is better than the other, but the man with the parachute is certainly better off than the man who is not wearing a parachute. The difference will be seen when they jump from the plane at 20,000 feet. <o></o>

Jesus warned that if we "jump" into death without Him, we would perish. Even harsher than the law of gravity is the Law of an infinitely holy and just Creator. Scripture states that sinners are God’s enemy (Romans 5:10) and that "it is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God (Hebrews 10:31).<o></o>

"I believe I will go to heaven because I live by the Golden Rule."

Much of the world knows the Golden Rule simply as "do unto others as you would have them do unto you" (see Luke 6:31). According to this verse, if we can live by this rule and love our neighbor as much as we love ourselves, we fulfill the Law. Have you ever lied, stolen, hated, or looked with lust? If we have broken any of these Commandments, then we haven’t loved those they have lied to, stolen from, etc. This show's that we have violated the Golden Rule.


"I have broken the Ten Commandments, but I do good things for people."

Many people do similar things. They may steal from their employer or cheat on their taxes, then give to a charity or spend Thanksgiving helping at a soup kitchen. They think they are balancing the scales: they have done bad, and now they are doing good. However, the Bible reveals that the motive of guilty sinners is one of guilt (see Hebrews 9:14). They are attempting to bribe the Judge of the Universe. However, the Judge in this case will not be corrupted. He must punish all sin. Good works cannot earn mercy; it comes purely by the grace of God. He will dismiss our iniquity only on the grounds of our faith in Jesus.

"I’m as good as any Christian!"

A Christian, by himself, isn’t good. Jesus said that only God is good. The only "goodness," or righteousness, that the believer has comes from Christ (2 Corinthians 5:21; Philippians 3:9). The Bible tells us that, without Christ, man is corrupt and filthy; "there is none that does good, no, not one" (Psalm 14:3).

"I’m doing fine. I don’t need God." <o></o>

Many people feel this way because of the modern gospel message. It says that Jesus will help their marriage, remove their drug problem, fill the emptiness in their heart, give them peace and joy, etc. In doing so, it restricts the gospel’s field of influence. If the message of the cross is for people who have bad marriages, are lonely, and have problems, those who are happy won’t see their need for the Savior. <o></o>

In truth, the forgiveness of God in Jesus Christ if for people with bad marriages and people with good marriages. It is for the happy and the sad. It is for people with problems and for those without problems. It is for those who are miserable in their sins, and for those who are enjoying the pleasures of sin for a season. Those who think they are doing fine need to be think about the holy Law that they have violated a multitude of times.

"I’ve made my peace with the ‘Man upstairs.’"

When people refer to God as "the Man upstairs," they reveal that they have no concept of (nor living relationship with) Him. They will use such words because they feel uncomfortable saying His name. Often they will have a measure of reverence for God, but not enough to obey Him.

People like this think there own "goodness will get them to heaven. However, the only way sinners can have peace with the God they have offended is through the shed blood of the Savior.


Don't have any gods before Him
Don't make any graven images
Don't use His name in vain
Remember the Sabbath and to keep it holy
Honor your father and mother
Don't kill, Jesus said hate in the heart is the same as murder
Don't commit adultery
Don't steal
Don't lie
Don't covet
This person will have transgressed these sins a multitude of times. At that point they are in need of a Savior and God's grace

[Jay Hagadorn]

This is the exact reason why I stay away from this type of discussion in my everyday life. Too often there are people who think if they say more and say it louder then they must be right. I don't need or deserve any reasons why you practice your faith.
Frankly I have a hard time reading exessively long posts.
If some one can send me a copy of "Theology For Dummies" that would be a better use of my time.
You're here now Paul, you must be some what concerned...

I was puttiing this out there off of pms I have received. I am not up for any debates. Blessings to you!

[Jay Hagadorn]

Salvation<o></o><o></o>

"How can you know that you are saved?"

A two-year-old boy was once staring at a heater, fascinated by its bright orange glow. His father saw him and warned, "Don’t touch that heater, son. It may look pretty, but it’s hot." The little boy believed him, and moved away from the heater. Some time later, after his father had left the room, the boy thought, "I wonder if it really is hot." He then reached out to touch it and see for himself. The second his flesh burned, he stopped believing it was hot; he now knew it was hot! He had moved out of the realm of belief into the realm of experience.

Christians believed in God’s existence before their conversion. However, when they obeyed the Word of God, turned from their sins, and embraced Jesus Christ, they stopped merely believing. The moment they reached out and touched the heater bar of God’s mercy, they moved out of belief into the realm of experience. This experience is so radical, Jesus referred to it as being "born again." The Bible says that those who don’t know God are spiritually dead (Ephesians 2:1; 4:18). We are born with physical life, but not spiritual life. Picture unbelievers as corpses walking around who, by repenting and placing their faith in Christ, receive His very life. There is a radical difference between a corpse and a living, breathing human, just as there is when sinners pass from spiritual death to life. The apostle Paul said if you are "in Christ," you are a brand new creature (2 Corinthians 5:17).

Those who now have God’s Spirit living in them will love what He loves and desire to do His will; they will have a hunger for His Word, a love for other believers, and a burden for the lost. The Holy Spirit also confirms in their spirit that they are now children of God (Romans 8:16). Those who believe on the name of the Son of God can know that they have eternal life (1 John 5:12,13).

Paul wrote to the church at <st1:city w:st="on"><st1>Corinth</st1></st1:city>, "My speech and my preaching were not with enticing words of man’s wisdom, but in demonstration of the Spirit and of power: that your faith should not stand in the wisdom of men, but in the power of God" (1 Corinthians 2:4,5). What Paul was saying was, "I deliberately didn’t talk you into your faith, but I let God’s power transform you." He didn’t reach them through an intellectual assent, but through the realm of personal experience.

Suppose two people—a heater manufacturer and a skin specialist—walked into the room just after that child had burned his hand on the heater. Both assured the boy that he couldn’t possibly have been burned. But all the experts, theories, and arguments in the world will not dissuade that boy, because of his experience. Those who have been transformed by God’s power need never fear scientific or other arguments, because the man with an experience is not at the mercy of a man with an argument. "For our gospel came not to you in word only, but also in power, and in the Holy Spirit, and in much assurance . . ." (1 Thessalonians 1:5).

[Patrick Nehoda]

Jay, I am very impressed with your patience and your knowledge. I know you don't answer these questions for self gratification. But I want to say that I admire you for your patience and conviction. You are a great strong man in many ways!
:mag:

To often are Christians casting a bad light on themselves by debating by telling people they are wrong and not backing it up. I respect the way you approach this topic!

[Josh Kamins]

I have a couple problems with those answers but my main one would be

"Christians can’t use “circular reasoning” by trying to prove the Bible by quoting from the Bible!"

The "circular reasoning" argument is absurd. That’s like saying you can’t prove that the President lives in the White House by looking into the White House. It is looking into the White House that will provide the necessary proof. The fulfilled prophecies, the amazing consistency, and the many scientific statements of the Bible prove it to be the Word of God. They provide evidence that it is supernatural in origin.


Looking at the bible is not like looking into the white house. You are saying the bible is true because it says its true. That is the definition of circular logic. Looking into the white house would be truly investigating the claims in the bible which is no longer possible.

[Jay Hagadorn]

I have a couple problems with those answers but my main one would be




Looking at the bible is not like looking into the white house. You are saying the bible is true because it says its true. That is the definition of circular logic. Looking into the white house would be truly investigating the claims in the bible which is no longer possible.

Big Josh-

Maybe this will make more sense:
If there is no ultimate authority to a Christian (or anyone else for that matter) a breakdown occurs in which to measure standards, statutes, laws, etc...If one were to actually read the bible in depth, the evidence is there substantiating its proofs.

[Josh Kamins]

Big Josh-

Maybe this will make more sense:
If there is no ultimate authority to a Christian (or anyone else for that matter) a breakdown occurs in which to measure standards, statutes, laws, etc...If one were to actually read the bible in depth, the evidence is there substantiating its proofs.

I guess we'll have to disagree on that. I don't feel there is a breakdown of standards without religion designating what is moral and immoral. Basic tenants of morality tend to be fairly consistent from culture to culture. Murder, stealing, infringing upon the rights of others are usually considered immoral. However, I feel that I try to act good because it is good, rather than a fear of consequences in the afterlife. In addition, I feel religion was often needed in the old days to enforce these laws of society when the government could not necessarily enforce laws when needed.

That being said, I think the value of most religious documents...the Torah, the Bible, etc. is that they are generally valuable parables about how to act morally and to live life happily. So they do in fact have purpose in my mind. However, I feel that any book written by man is fallible, especially with inconsistencies between translations and flaws found in most of them including different gospels disagreeing with one another in the Christian bible.

But these kinds of things can never be agreed upon, so I wish you a good night.

[Jay Hagadorn]

I guess we'll have to disagree on that. I don't feel there is a breakdown of standards without religion designating what is moral and immoral. Basic tenants of morality tend to be fairly consistent from culture to culture. Murder, stealing, infringing upon the rights of others are usually considered immoral.

God says in His word that He has given all of us the understanding of wrong and right, it's written in us

I feel that any book written by man is fallible, especially with inconsistencies between translations and flaws found in most of them including different gospels disagreeing with one another in the Christian bible.

The Bible has many seeming contradictions within its pages. For example, the four Gospels give four differing accounts as to what was written on the sign that hung on the cross. Matthew said, “This is Jesus the King of the Jews” (27:37). However, Mark contradicts that with “The King of the Jews” (15:26). Luke says something different: “This is the King of the Jews” (23:38), and John maintains that the sign said “Jesus of Nazareth the King of the Jews” (19:19).

Those who are looking for contradictions may therefore say, “See—the Bible is full of mistakes!” and choose to reject it entirely as being untrustworthy. However, those who trust God have no problem harmonizing the Gospels. There is no contradiction if the sign simply said, “This is Jesus of Nazareth the King of the Jews.”

If you and I were asked to give an account of one event with one competitor at a strongman contest, we would both write different words, but with the same meaning.



The godly base a Christians confidence is in two truths: 1) “all Scripture is given by inspiration of God” (2 Timothy 3:16); and 2) an elementary rule of Scripture is that God has deliberately included seeming contradictions in His Word to “snare” the proud. (Luke 10:21), (1 Corinthians 1:27).

[anton axelsson]

this thread got alot of response wow.... this is a subject that no one can ever agree upon everybody has their own belives on who and what god is....ive stated my thiery on how life is gona end for me atleast and i do not belive in heaven or hell... and honestly if there is a hell ill see everyone there beacause we have all sinned.. but now if god forgives everyone then we are all in luck and can just say we are sorry and we get to go be angels then what is the point of hell :EB:

[Mike Landrich]

Here's an idea. No one push their beliefs, whether religious, agnostic or atheist on anyone else. Respect others' choices, unless it affects you, which religion in the US, and most of the civilized world, does not.To those who are arguing using logic, remember religion is based on FAITH, which is the belief in that which cannot be proven. To those basing their argument on faith, you will never convince anyone who is using logic. Use your anger at what you perceive as the others' ignorance to push yourself to achieve new PRs in honor of whomever, or whatever, you idolize.

[Josh Kamins]

I don't think people here have been that angry. I agree its a discussion that won't cause too many to change their minds, but I enjoy discussions in philosophy, and hope I can teach a few things about biology along the way.

[Scott Markowitz]

I think that's why these discussions aren't generally very productive, Josh - a lot of people (myself included) all hoping to teach something and very few hoping to learn.

:IMHO:

[Callie Marunde]

I am closing this post.

I appreciate everyones comments and I hope everyone was able to have a say.
This started out related to strongman but quickly turned into discussions that you guys can have on a relgion debate forum.

Thanks to everyone who contributed and kept it civil. Please remember that Jesse wanted this forum to be about strength athletics

If anyone is wondering..

Jesse was a Christian and he read the bible. We prayed daily. We went to church and he was the spiritual leader of our household.

Jesse lead me to the Lord. I am most certain that I wouldnt be able to carry on without God.


Callie