When will we see a 3,000lb total?

[dronga]

I just saw the video of ryan kennelly benching 1050, and he has a video of himself 1 board pressing 1120!! 1120!!!Does anyone think that we'll see a 3,000+ total in the near future?

[Brandon Smith]

I just saw the video of ryan kennelly benching 1050, and he has a video of himself 1 board pressing 1120!! 1120!!!Does anyone think that we'll see a 3,000+ total in the near future?

I think if Andy Bolton can get his bench up he should be able to break a 3000 total, if everything falls into place. I mean he's pulled 1003 and squated 1214, which means he doesn't have to bench 800 to break 3000 if he can repeat the squat and dead. I think his best though is what, 676?

[Terry_hollands]

I'm pretty certain Bolton will do it in the next year or 2

[Alex Klotz]

Yeah Bolton just needs to get a fancier shirt.

What will be amazing is when somebody gets over 1000 in all three lifts. Gerry Frank I think is the only person to get 900 in all three.

edit: of course that's not to say that a 3000 lb total isn't amazing.

[Brandon Smith]

Yeah Bolton just needs to get a fancier shirt.

What will be amazing is when somebody gets over 1000 in all three lifts. Gerry Frank I think is the only person to get 900 in all three.

edit: of course that's not to say that a 3000 lb total isn't amazing.

Haha, it's all about the shirt! But yeah, I think we'll see Bolton hit a 3000 lb total in the near future. 1000 in all three would be impressive too of course.

[Anthony Cissell]

I really don't think Bolton needs a better shirt as much as it is that he just needs time to work the one he has in better. He's using the same shirt that Ryan Kennelly uses which is a Inzer Phenom shirt. I recently saw a video of Bolton using a 2 or 3 board I can't remember and doing 800 with his shirt on and it went up pretty quick for him. I've also read in another forum that he's hit an 800 pound bench or at least close to it in training. I don't doubt that Bolton's squat went up either. It's probably in the 1250ish range now I would estimate and in an attempt he had at 1015 in the dead it went up pretty fast and he barely missed locking it out and I'm darn near positive he has a 1000+ in him for the dead. The question is can he put it all together in a 3 lift meet (which will no doubt be the Arnold if he competes in it given the WPO isn't a part of it anymore). We shall see but I have no doubts that Bolton should get it first.

But! Chad Aichs is right on his tail. At last years Arnold, Chad had a 2744 total which is pretty darn impressive no doubt and he had the first 800 pound bench in the Arnold's three lift meet. He had something along the lines of a 1177 squat, 800 bench, and a 744 deadlift. If he brings his deadlift up he could be the next contender for the 3000 total. More than likely Bolton will be the first to get it, but don't be surprised to see Aichs break 2800 if not 2900 sometime in the near future as well as Bolton.

[paul kuokkanen]

I do believe Bolton said we might see it in february in LA

should look something like this

1260sq
750b
990dl

[Josh Kamins]

Put Siders in a canvas squat suit and a 2 ply shirt.

[BradyJones]

Put Siders in a canvas squat suit and a 2 ply shirt.

yea no kidding.... to be honest if siders had a perfect spot on day and was hitting everything 2800 would be well within reach in a single ply... his 777 bench FLEW up and his 1003 squat looked like a speed squat.. just missed that on a technicality

[Kevin Cronin]

Put Siders in a canvas squat suit and a 2 ply shirt.

seeing as how thats VERY probably never going to happen, and definitely not any time soon, whats the point of this baseless speculation? i cannot claim to have lifted in bothsingle and double ply, but i think most would agree that preparation for the two is quite different. Siders is STRONG, one of the strongest men on the planet, but to say that popping him into xyz gear is silly, and i think a bit dismissive of those who are working towards it. you can no more say "well, X in single ply is equal to Y in double" than you can say "A lbs in double is = to B lbs unequipped"

[Alex Klotz]

I just went through the powerlifting records and it turns out that Garry Frank, if you add up all his PRs from separate events, has a total of 2959.7 lb. That is darn impressive. It's like 60 lb above Bolton's pseudototal, although I'm not sure what his best meet bench is.

[Josh Kamins]

seeing as how thats VERY probably never going to happen, and definitely not any time soon, whats the point of this baseless speculation? i cannot claim to have lifted in bothsingle and double ply, but i think most would agree that preparation for the two is quite different. Siders is STRONG, one of the strongest men on the planet, but to say that popping him into xyz gear is silly, and i think a bit dismissive of those who are working towards it. you can no more say "well, X in single ply is equal to Y in double" than you can say "A lbs in double is = to B lbs unequipped"

Calm down dude, it was a joke...I understand double ply will not instantly give him X lbs, especially with the technology single ply is using these days

[BradyJones]

seeing as how thats VERY probably never going to happen, and definitely not any time soon, whats the point of this baseless speculation? i cannot claim to have lifted in bothsingle and double ply, but i think most would agree that preparation for the two is quite different. Siders is STRONG, one of the strongest men on the planet, but to say that popping him into xyz gear is silly, and i think a bit dismissive of those who are working towards it. you can no more say "well, X in single ply is equal to Y in double" than you can say "A lbs in double is = to B lbs unequipped"

not sure if it will ever happen, but i would almost bet the house that if he got a triple ply and lifted in that for JUST a few months, he would add at the very least 75 lbs.that is being very very conservative.. i have heard countless times that a raw lifter slips on a SINGLE ply and literally within weeks he has upped his bench 25 lbs. Siders has VERY strong tris and shoulders(the utmost importance when using double and triple ply shirts)and frankly i would be shocked if a triple ply didnt add considerable lbs to his bench. Not sure about the squat but with a little practice im sure that would add lots of lbs as well. there is no equations nor is there a special formula like you said though..

The whole point is that you are probably right that he wont use this type of gear but then again we could very well be wrong.

[Kevin Cronin]

Calm down dude, it was a joke...I understand double ply will not instantly give him X lbs, especially with the technology single ply is using these days

nahh, im calm. i tried to phrase it that way in my post, guess i just was unable to convey. the vagaries of the internet i guess.

it's a weird subject for me because i think my very first time in a shirt i was able to bench my max, and my second time a week later i hit 40lb above my max easy. on the other hand the first time i tried a squat suit i couldnt support anywhere near the weight i woulda needed to hit parallel. and the one time i've tried a deadlift suit i couldnt get down to the bar (im VERY excited to try my new king deadlifter with velcro straps this week tho :D). so its funny that way

[dronga]

I have a Metal bench shirt and a Metal deadlift suit, the bench shirt is crazy, it's difficult to get 365 down to my chest, and Kevin you're right, my Metal deadlift suit makes it damnnear impossible for me to get down in position to deadlift. It just takes practice when using equipment. Btw, Kevin, what kind of deadlift suit did you get?

[Chad Robison]

why dont they just make everything single ply and trash all the other gear, not trying to stir the pot or anything but this is why i got out of powerlifting all together, the quick and massive gains are alot of times due to a simple gear change from a single to a double/triple. I am not ragging on todays powerlifters at all, but I am sure I will catch some flack for this, I competed in powerlifting for 2 years and only used a single ply denim when I benched, one guy imparticular I beat in the bench press by nearly 30 pounds, 7 months later, my bench had gone up another 10-20 pounds and I run into this guy at another meet and he destroyed me in the bench press by nearly 60 pounds!! all because he updated his gear!! 3000 is going to happen sooner than later, but in my opinion only a few guys will run it down and actually own it through there work (Andy Bolton) and not just regearing...my two cents.

Chad Robison

[Paul Savage]

yeh they could use single ply only, OR, better yet, they could just use themselves so it would be proper powerlifting - that would be awesome!

[jay lyttle]

3,000 will happen when andy bolton sez it will and not a moment sooner!

[Josh Kamins]

yeh they could use single ply only, OR, better yet, they could just use themselves so it would be proper powerlifting - that would be awesome!

Says the man who uses straps on all his lifts in the gym...


C'mon lets not start this gear debate again guys.


why dont they just make everything single ply and trash all the other gear, not trying to stir the pot or anything but this is why i got out of powerlifting all together, the quick and massive gains are alot of times due to a simple gear change from a single to a double/triple. I am not ragging on todays powerlifters at all, but I am sure I will catch some flack for this, I competed in powerlifting for 2 years and only used a single ply denim when I benched, one guy imparticular I beat in the bench press by nearly 30 pounds, 7 months later, my bench had gone up another 10-20 pounds and I run into this guy at another meet and he destroyed me in the bench press by nearly 60 pounds!! all because he updated his gear!! 3000 is going to happen sooner than later, but in my opinion only a few guys will run it down and actually own it through there work (Andy Bolton) and not just regearing...my two cents.

If someone beat you because he had better lifting gear or because he knew his gear better and had better technique to take advantage of it, then you can't complain about it. He was willing to do everything within the rules to win and you weren't. If you were happy with your own performance, then fine, just be happy with that, but don't tarnish his.

And Bolton IS in double ply gear, so how he's more deserving I don't understand.

[Chad Robison]

Says the man who uses straps on all his lifts in the gym...


C'mon lets not start this gear debate again guys.




If someone beat you because he had better lifting gear or because he knew his gear better and had better technique to take advantage of it, then you can't complain about it. He was willing to do everything within the rules to win and you weren't. If you were happy with your own performance, then fine, just be happy with that, but don't tarnish his.

And Bolton IS in double ply gear, so how he's more deserving I don't understand.

it was a simple opinion!! i wasnt complaining, i was making a point about true strength versus gear, i also mentioned nothing about technique, so where you got that i dont know, i remember watching the guy in warmups barely hit a 365 without his gear then he comes out and does mid 4's, this was strictly an example, i wasnt trying to attack anyone, maybe you should reread my post from earlier and try to understand it before coming at me with negative sarcasm...i was giving an example.

Chad Robison

[Nick Best]

This is EXACTLY why I left powerlifting!!! One fed has rules so strict its not fun anymore, the other its about gear and not just being truely strong. You are not going to go put on a suit if your car is stuck in the mud and you want to lift it out. I am much more impressed with watching big Z actually jog with an 1136 yolk than a guy squat 1200 in a monolift, with double ply groove briefs, double ply canvas squat suit with velcro straps, 3 meter knee wraps, 2 inches high. It does show ones ability to handle very high blood pressure with out passing out though. A true 3000 total will happen, but without the heavy reliance on industructable gear will be about another 20 to 30 years. Unless the genetic tampering comes through sooner. Sorry if I offen some, just my opinion over the last 24 years of competeing and training.

Nick

[Billy Wolt]

to answer the original question-----

as soon as this suit is allowed in competition

http://farm1.static.flickr.com/127/414948493_50dcfc103b.jpg?v=0

[Corey DuCharme]

to answer the original question-----

as soon as this suit is allowed in competition

http://farm1.static.flickr.com/127/414948493_50dcfc103b.jpg?v=0

You nerd...................

I am so weak that it would be utterly pointless for me to buy powerlifting gear, kind of like putting one of those custom spoilers on the back of an '84 Cavalier, why bother.

Some people want guys to lift completely naked while others would allow a forklift under the butt. Personal preference I guess, but 3,000 would be pretty awesome, and it is going to take some gear.

[Chad Robison]

This is EXACTLY why I left powerlifting!!! One fed has rules so strict its not fun anymore, the other its about gear and not just being truely strong. You are not going to go put on a suit if your car is stuck in the mud and you want to lift it out. I am much more impressed with watching big Z actually jog with an 1136 yolk than a guy squat 1200 in a monolift, with double ply groove briefs, double ply canvas squat suit with velcro straps, 3 meter knee wraps, 2 inches high. It does show ones ability to handle very high blood pressure with out passing out though. A true 3000 total will happen, but without the heavy reliance on industructable gear will be about another 20 to 30 years. Unless the genetic tampering comes through sooner. Sorry if I offen some, just my opinion over the last 24 years of competeing and training.

Nick

AMEN!! someone else finally said it, I competed as a teenager and then in the juniors ages (20-23), nothing like what you competed in Nick, but your post doesnt have a single word in it that i would disagree with, well played sir!!

Chad Robison

[D.J. Satterfield]

This is EXACTLY why I left powerlifting!!! One fed has rules so strict its not fun anymore, the other its about gear and not just being truely strong. You are not going to go put on a suit if your car is stuck in the mud and you want to lift it out. I am much more impressed with watching big Z actually jog with an 1136 yolk than a guy squat 1200 in a monolift, with double ply groove briefs, double ply canvas squat suit with velcro straps, 3 meter knee wraps, 2 inches high. It does show ones ability to handle very high blood pressure with out passing out though. A true 3000 total will happen, but without the heavy reliance on industructable gear will be about another 20 to 30 years. Unless the genetic tampering comes through sooner. Sorry if I offen some, just my opinion over the last 24 years of competeing and training.

Nick

This is why I took on the Nebraska state chair of the 100% RAW Powerlifting Federation. No drugs, no gear. Belt and chalk only. The lifters down here have really taken to it and our third meet looks to be the biggest yet. I have lifters come from all over to compete because they can actually compete with each other. Also, the meets run very quickly without having to wait for all the gear and such.

OK, before all you gear buddies jump my post, these are my opinions and thoughts only, so calm down. Just adding my thoughts in agreement with Nick's post.

[Corey DuCharme]

This is why I took on the Nebraska state chair of the 100% RAW Powerlifting Federation. No drugs, no gear. Belt and chalk only. The lifters down here have really taken to it and our third meet looks to be the biggest yet. I have lifters come from all over to compete because they can actually compete with each other. Also, the meets run very quickly without having to wait for all the gear and such.

OK, before all you gear buddies jump my post, these are my opinions and thoughts only, so calm down. Just adding my thoughts in agreement with Nick's post.

That's the kind of meet I would like to try if I ever got motivated to do so. Mostly because, as I said earlier, I'm so weak the gear would be a waste of money and I would just like to see what I can do on my own.

What's the biggest total you have ever seen at one of your meets D.J.?

Billy, you're still a nerd, but I'm a bigger one. :B:

[Billy Wolt]

This is why I took on the Nebraska state chair of the 100% RAW Powerlifting Federation. No drugs, no gear. Belt and chalk only. The lifters down here have really taken to it and our third meet looks to be the biggest yet. I have lifters come from all over to compete because they can actually compete with each other. Also, the meets run very quickly without having to wait for all the gear and such.

OK, before all you gear buddies jump my post, these are my opinions and thoughts only, so calm down. Just adding my thoughts in agreement with Nick's post.


being that your the chair for nebraska....do you know if there is a NY division?

[Tony Christopher]

Honestly folks ... when will a human being total 3,000 in powerlifting? Simple ... never.

Oh, I have no doubt that a human helped by gear will hit 3,000 soon ... with the gear doing about 700-800 pounds of the work and the human 2,200 - 2,300. But without gear, it's not possible.

Consider, to hit a 3,000 raw total (and by raw, I don't have a problem with a guy wearing a belt and simple knee or elbow wraps) someone would have to deadlift 1,050, bench 800, and squat 1,150 (or something similar).

That's about 100 pounds more than the all time best deadlifter (Bolton) can likely hit without gear, about 75 pounds more than the all time best bencher (Mendelson) can hit without gear, and about 200 pounds more than the all time best raw squatter (Mark Henry) has hit without gear ... AND you'd have to have all these lifts combined in the SAME GUY. Guys who have huge deads and squats usually don't have enormous benches, and vice versa.

More importantly, with most of the best powerlifters today training in gear (i.e. training to maximize their skill in gear, as opposed to training to become all out stronger) not only are raw totals not going up, they're in fact declining. Who's the strongest raw lifter in the world today? Bolton? Siders? Could either of them put up a 2410 or 2420 to match the (almost) raw lifts of Reinhoudt and Kaz from the late 70's and 80's? I sincerely doubt it. Siders could do no better than 2,200 at NERB a few years ago.

Finally, I'm pretty certain that in terms of absolute strength, the human body is getting close to it's limits. To be much stronger than a guy like Kaz someone would have to carry significantly more muscle mass. Unfortunately, the heart and rest of the cardiovascular system have an awful lot of trouble supporting much more than 350 pounds of muscular weight ... notice that really huge strength athletes often suffer from high blood pressure and a host of associated health problems.

Finally, let's draw an analogy ... the all time world record in Olympic weightlifting hasn't gone up since Tarnenko's 266kg C&J in what ... the early 80s? Now, will someone ever break this record. Probably ... I can see some guy hitting 270, 275 maybe. But will anyone ever break it by 25% (best ever raw PL total is give or take 2400, to get to 3000 that represents a 25% improvement). Not on your life. That would mean someone would have to C&J 332.5kg (731.5 pounds). I'd bet my house that's never gonna happen.

If in our lifetime we see a guy who can pull 950, squat 1,000 and bench 700 raw (2,650) I'll be surprised.

[BradyJones]

never

I dont think this would should ever be used. Never say never is a very good saying to live by.

[Zach Snyder]

bickering over powerlifting rules is about as gay as arguing about politics on message board. it just makes people angry, and never proves anything.

[Kevin Cronin]

why dont they just make everything single ply and trash all the other gear,

But why allow single ply gear and no others? Gear is gear. I can understand drawing the line between gear and no gear, but if youre lifting single ply youre getting assistance, saying that a single ply of assistance is ok but double isnt makes no sense to me

not only are raw totals not going up, they're in fact declining. Who's the strongest raw lifter in the world today? Bolton? Siders? Could either of them put up a 2410 or 2420 to match the (almost) raw lifts of Reinhoudt and Kaz from the late 70's and 80's? I sincerely doubt it. Siders could do no better than 2,200 at NERB a few years ago.

Why on earth would you expect someone to break records in a discipline of the sport which he hasnt trained for in who knows how long? Also, its worth noting thatmendelson holds the 2 best in-competition benches of all time and henderson hit his 708 (i think, not 100% sure of the exact number) only a few years before. the unequipped bench record has gone up i think ~30 lbs in the last 20-30 years

Dan Ronga, I bought a metal King pro deadlifter. Single-ply, thicker material than viking and what i am most excited about is that it has velcro straps so you can choose just how much to jack up the suit

[Jeremy Leonard]

This is my own feelings if it offends anyone Iam sorry. If the moderators seem fit to delete it so be it.


Why argue over geared and non-geared feds? Its like arguing over using steroids and not using. Some people are willing to do whatever it takes to win some are not. If you want to lift raw lift raw if you want to lift geared lift geared. Dont complain about it when people do something you are not willing to do just like steriods or lift in gear.

[Paul_Koskinen]

Best thing I've heard all day!
You can utilize everything under the sun or choose not to. This classic arguement will still be raging on long after we're gone.

[Billy Wolt]

Best thing I've heard all day!
You can utilize everything under the sun or choose not to. This classic arguement will still be raging on long after we're gone.


and that's the great about opinions, it makes for good discussion.

Lets just say we went with the suggestion about not arguing about geared lifting, well, why not apply that to every other aspect of life?

You have a problem with Bush's foreign policy? keep it to yourself, you can't change it.

Don't like abortion? too bad. it will keep happening as long as someone profits from it

Don't like drugs? same situation as abortions

etc, etc etc....i could go on and on.

Is the debate about gear old? yes...but so is everything else i mentioned above.

The bottom line is that the debate is relevant to our community....so as long as conversation remains civil, why stop people from talking about equipped lifting whether they are pro or con?

[James Fernandes]

Andy Bolton will break 3000lbs pretrty soon within the year I would think, or definetely the next year, he will bench 800lb soon, 460kg deadlift at the Brits he pretty much had it!!! and looked on for a lot more, thats how scary his strength is! the 460kg came up easier than the 1003lb deadlift WR!

equipped or unequipped, drug free or not, Bolton would beat anyone in the world out there garanteed beating Gary Frank, Chad, Siders,

[Josh Kamins]

and that's the great about opinions, it makes for good discussion.

Lets just say we went with the suggestion about not arguing about geared lifting, well, why not apply that to every other aspect of life?

You have a problem with Bush's foreign policy? keep it to yourself, you can't change it.

Don't like abortion? too bad. it will keep happening as long as someone profits from it

Don't like drugs? same situation as abortions

etc, etc etc....i could go on and on.

Is the debate about gear old? yes...but so is everything else i mentioned above.

The bottom line is that the debate is relevant to our community....so as long as conversation remains civil, why stop people from talking about equipped lifting whether they are pro or con?

The problem is they don't usually remain civil because people take shots at the value of another's lifts. All those things you listed above affect others. What one group decides to lift in has no relevance to your life. There are plenty of non geared and single ply feds out there, why some people have to take away from a style of lifting that clearly a lot of people still enjoy is beyond me.

[Josh Kamins]

Andy Bolton will break 3000lbs pretrty soon within the year I would think, or definetely the next year, he will bench 800lb soon, 460kg deadlift at the Brits he pretty much had it!!! and looked on for a lot more, thats how scary his strength is! the 460kg came up easier than the 1003lb deadlift WR!

equipped or unequipped, drug free or not, Bolton would beat anyone in the world out there garanteed beating Gary Frank, Chad, Siders,

Not sure about that, Siders' 2600 at the USAPL looked easy. I would guess that at this point he has more raw strength than Bolton in bench and squat, though clearly not in DL. We'll never know though... All I know is Bolton is explosive as hell for someone his size. Some of his deadlift workouts are crazy, he was using 585 for speed work and it is fast!

[Paul_Koskinen]

Is the debate about gear old? yes...but so is everything else i mentioned above.


The argument about "supplements" and gear just goes around and around. There are no new developments to discuss so in the end it comes down to lifters who have way too much time on their hands. Perhaps I'm just like them posting in this topic (occasionally off topic too).
The worst thing is a vast majority of people are voicing their opinion on a subject they have little or no experience with. I don't recall any loud complaints from anyone who gets 75-100 lbs. out of a bench shirt. :BP:

[Alex Klotz]

How does this idea sound?

All the equipment a lifter uses has to cost less than $300 total (or another number). This will allow equipment for safety purposes, but prevent things from going overboard (overboard, for example, is Gene Rychlak failing an 890 lb bench because the shirt was so strong that he couldn't even touch the weight to his chest).

Brilliant solution? Stupid idea?

[Chris Hickson]

How does this idea sound?

All the equipment a lifter uses has to cost less than $300 total (or another number). This will allow equipment for safety purposes, but prevent things from going overboard (overboard, for example, is Gene Rychlak failing an 890 lb bench because the shirt was so strong that he couldn't even touch the weight to his chest).

Brilliant solution? Stupid idea?
the reason genes shirt is tighter/stronger is beacuse his lockout strength is way above someone who can bench 500-so the 500 bencher cant have as tight a shirt cuz thay wont be able to bring the weight anywhere close enough!

[James Fernandes]

Not sure about that, Siders' 2600 at the USAPL looked easy. I would guess that at this point he has more raw strength than Bolton in bench and squat, though clearly not in DL. We'll never know though... All I know is Bolton is explosive as hell for someone his size. Some of his deadlift workouts are crazy, he was using 585 for speed work and it is fast!

Siders is one strong lifter, however he wasnt competing raw, and in single ply, which does in fact give a lot of extra weight onto your raw, Siders is stronger in the Bench, but Im not sure about the squat, Andy is WR holder in the squat, and Siders is on WR class for squat in the USAPL.

however we will never know unless both lifters lift in the same fed under same rules.

[Josh Kamins]

How does this idea sound?

All the equipment a lifter uses has to cost less than $300 total (or another number). This will allow equipment for safety purposes, but prevent things from going overboard (overboard, for example, is Gene Rychlak failing an 890 lb bench because the shirt was so strong that he couldn't even touch the weight to his chest).

Brilliant solution? Stupid idea?

How about people compete in the federation they want to, with the equipment they want to, and we don't judge them for it?

[Josh Kamins]

Siders is one strong lifter, however he wasnt competing raw, and in single ply, which does in fact give a lot of extra weight onto your raw, Siders is stronger in the Bench, but Im not sure about the squat, Andy is WR holder in the squat, and Siders is on WR class for squat in the USAPL.

however we will never know unless both lifters lift in the same fed under same rules.

Yep, we can just consider them the best currently at what they do... and be happy to see what they can do

[Tony Christopher]

Kevin Cronin: In reply to my earlier post you wrote:

"Why on earth would you expect someone (Brian Siders) to break records in a discipline of the sport which he hasnt trained for in who knows how long?"

I 100% agree with you, in fact, that's the whole point of my post. The best powerlifters in the world today are training both for strength (no doubt guys like Siders, Bolton etc. are tremendously strong) AND to get the most out of their gear. This means that in terms of pure strength (i.e. ability to move weight WITHOUT gear) they're just a LITTLE bit weaker than the "masters of old". Which means, there's absolutely no reason to suspect anyone is going to get anywhere close to a 3,000 pound raw total ... and, as I wrote before, I'd be shocked if anyone hit 2,500 raw before the year 2100 ... the most gifted powerlifters just don't train for maximum raw output anymore.

Many of you wrote, essentially: "Let people lift however they want, using whatever gear they want."

I have no issue with that ... who is anyone to tell anyone else how to lift. Only thing is, I just can't get excited about geared totals, especially people breaking some "milestone" in gear. The day someone hits 3,000 in gear, I won't care one single bit. It will simply mean that the gear has improved to a level where it provides enough assistance for a very strong guy to hit this mark.

I guess if I was a fan of PLing gear technology, or owned stock in INZER (are they even a publicly traded company?) I might get excited ... a big # like this will probably get more people to switch to gear, and hence improve the companies bottom line, but as a fan of HUMAN ACHIEVEMENT in sport ... Ho HUM. There's no way of knowing if the human part of the human/gear combo has actually gotten any better.

[Mike Pelosi]

This is ridicilous. All this garbage about gear going on again. You have to be kidding me. Seeing how all of this goes on so frequently it makes me want to be a chess player sometimes and stop lifting weights. There is so much ingnorance when it comes to gear and power lifting it's become quite comical to here someone say "I don't respect geared totals" or I dont care about geared lifts. I have this vision that we are all strength athletes in a small community who should stick together and work off of each other for the bigger picture. Its disgusting that someone who competes in strength sports would trash someone because of a choice they've made to lift. Then to say they are not strong or they are not raw strong is also ridicilous.

Then you have the power lifters trashing the strongmen about how they arent really strong at all and just are good at repping out weight. Thats also ridicilous. However, this is a sport of EGO and I understand why it must exist.

However, Id seriously like to see some of these big mouths do what they preach about on these forums. You want to trash a geared total or disrespect a legend like Bolton then go put up a RESPECTABLE power lifting total, raw, geared, naked whatever. Put up a RESPECTABLE TOTAL then you can speak.

And for the power lifters who trash the strongmen about how they are not really strong go place in the top 3 (maybe 5) at a CHALLENGING contest. Then you can speak. Or go break the max log record or walk up to a 300lb stone and lift it up if your so strong. And no, lifting a 250lb stone with no training is not impressive to a compettitive strongman.

Until you've been considered strong by someone other then your younger brother you should probably shut up, listen, learn, spot, load, and lift. Thats it. Some of these people choose not to do those things. I don't see them getting much further then the Golds Gym squat rack.

What I don't get is we all clearly have heros of the sport who would never engage themselves in such ridicilous talk, especially on PUBLIC forums. They lead by example...they take challenges, train to get strong, stay friends with everyone in the STRENGTH ATHLETE COMMUNITY, and probably don't care if someone just benched 1000lbs with a shirt on or 600lbs with a shirt off.

You can have your opinnions and you dont have to keep them to yourself by any means. Im not a fan of gear for certain reasons and I'm not a fan of most strongman contests either. However, if one of my training partners said he wanted to go do a quarter squat contest I'd be there for him because it's the community of strength that Im so very proud to be in. If they wanted to go do a strict curl compettition the same.

Shut up, listen, learn, spot, load, and lift. Best advice EVER given to me.
Want to learn about gear and truly make a judgement? Get in some. Until then stop reading STRENGTH FORUMS for your one source of information and stop being so IGNORANT.

[Billy Wolt]

Mike...

i don't need to put a respectable total in order to argue against something i find ridiculous.

Pick a weight class, look at the top raw lifts vs the top geared lifts....as a lifter, why should i respect that?

I have respect for anyone that lifts...from your average gym weenie, to geared powerlifters....what and how they do it however, are a different story.

don't give me the old "respect them because they how they choose to lift" argument...cause if that is the best answer there is, i'm gonna go start the HAPLA - Hydraulic Assisted PowerLifting Association, and nobody better bash it because that's the way it's competitors choose to lift.

[Chris Hickson]

yeah bolton could do it sometime im sure.

[Mike Pelosi]

Oh and yes Bolton will do it, as long as he stays healthy, no longer before the end of 09

[Josh Kamins]

Mike...

i don't need to put a respectable total in order to argue against something i find ridiculous.

Pick a weight class, look at the top raw lifts vs the top geared lifts....as a lifter, why should i respect that?

I have respect for anyone that lifts...from your average gym weenie, to geared powerlifters....what and how they do it however, are a different story.

don't give me the old "respect them because they how they choose to lift" argument...cause if that is the best answer there is, i'm gonna go start the HAPLA - Hydraulic Assisted PowerLifting Association, and nobody better bash it because that's the way it's competitors choose to lift.

Have you ever actually used powerifting gear? Do you know how it works? Do you know what it feels like? I think thats his point. Your assumption that the gear does the work for you is based on numbers, not experience. These guys train for their own federation, why should they be worrying about raw world records? Thats like telling an olympic lifter that his Jerk weight doesn't matter because he can't strict press X lbs. Why would he care? They are different lifts and different records.


God D-it I can't believe you dragged me into this dumb argument again

[Adam Keep]

However, Id seriously like to see some of these big mouths do what they preach about on these forums. You want to trash a geared total or disrespect a legend like Bolton then go put up a RESPECTABLE power lifting total, raw, geared, naked whatever. Put up a RESPECTABLE TOTAL then you can speak.

Until you've been considered strong by someone other then your younger brother you should probably shut up, listen, learn, spot, load, and lift. Thats it. Some of these people choose not to do those things. I don't see them getting much further then the Golds Gym squat rack.

Shut up, listen, learn, spot, load, and lift. Best advice EVER given to me.
Want to learn about gear and truly make a judgement? Get in some. Until then stop reading STRENGTH FORUMS for your one source of information and stop being so IGNORANT.

It doesn't take a good total to have an opinion Mike. All it takes is a little knowledge. Look at all of these sports announcers and analysts, most look like they could never have played a sport ever let alone talk about it, but their word is taken as gospel. Powerlifting totals have gotten out of hand. FACT! It still takes a great deal of strength though to do what they do so they do deserve respect, but even an uneducated person (in powerlifting) understands that the ammount of weight a piece of equipment possibly adds is silly. I will never down a geared lifter though because I know it still takes a lot of work and time with weights to get anywhere with it.

[Mike Pelosi]

I dont expect anyone to agree with my statements. I don't take what those sports analysts take as word unless they've played the sport. Until then you can't speak about heart, determination, injury etc. I take it with a grain of salt. I have a handful of people who I will trust on advice, different rumors (I want truths) etc. Other then that, these forums that "speculate" or gear giving 10000lbs to someone or someones shirt blowing and them not making the lift are pure garbage.

And that statement was directed towards those who tear down other lifters because of certain choices. I know this is a public debate forum but it was not meant for anyone who has respect for other lifters. It was made for those who tear down the power lifters who use gear or disregard their totals. It was intended towards those who are ignorant. And unfortunately, alot of opinions are ignorant.

Musclejoe77 on a forum says "Oh Gene Rychlak uses this shirt and it has 7 layers to it and the reason why he missed the lift is because it teared". Musclejoe77 heard from a friend from a friend from a friend from a friend who claimed to be there and now its word. Why do you think the major powerlifters and strongmen stay away from forums? Because of all the garbage like this that pollutes it.

I come from a different background I suppose. I can have an opinion on something, we all do, but I'm not speaking as a person. Im speaking as an athlete. And, for an ATHLETE to trash another ATHLETE their best be some substantial reasoning behind it. Not that gear adds 500lbs to your lifts and does the work for you without you ever using gear or have done a power lifting contest. Just like if a powerlifting ATHLETE trashes a strongman ATHLETE saying that the contests are light and easy but have never done one that is an ignorant opinion and that person should prove himself or herself before trashing an athlete.

Listen, their is a huge difference between saying "I'm not a fan of gear in powerlifting" compared to "Geared totals are stupid, gear is stupid, power lifting is stupid, Andy Bolton used a suit to pull his 1003lbs, etc etc etc" My comments are directed towards the latter. I know my comments will get mistaken and mistruded but thats part of a public forum I guess. Cant please everyone.

Im not a fan of gear in powerlifting, Im not a fan of a majority of strongman contests and how they are formatted.

Now If I say "Wow, that Olympic Lifter is dumb, what kind of idiot does snatches, cleans, and jerks" well then I better have at least tested the waters in those and gotten to a level where I can say that. And even then its just plain ignorance.

[Tony Christopher]

Mike,

There's a big difference between respecting a LIFTER and respecting a LIFT.

I respect anyone who does strength training, amateur or pro, strongman or powerlifter, world champion or teenager who's in the gym for the very first time.

However, I don't respect numbers going higher and higher in power lifting without the lifters actually getting any stronger. And anyone who isn't kidding themselves knows that's all that's happening.

Sorry ... you can rage at me all you want. You can dismiss me and this "tired old argument" all you want, but that's how I feel now and will always feel.

If this view offends people ... I don't much care, feel free to neg rep me. I am entitled to my opinion just as everyone else is to theirs. If it offends the mods on this forum they can ban me ... that's their right.

To my mind, strength athletics is supposed to be about human achievement, pushing the human body to its limits. Not about developing better and better assistance devices.

If I want to follow a sport where the machinery is just as important as human skill, I'll follow auto racing.

Andy Bolton is a great strength athlete, but the day he gears up and breaks 3,000 will be a non-event in my book. All it will mean is that the gear finally got good enough to let him boost his number over some imaginary line.

And please ... speaking of tired old arguments, get off the "you only have a right to speak if you have a world class total crap". I have a doctoral degree and some other people don't ... does that mean they don't have a right to debate things with me? Sheesh.


This is ridicilous. All this garbage about gear going on again. You have to be kidding me. Seeing how all of this goes on so frequently it makes me want to be a chess player sometimes and stop lifting weights. There is so much ingnorance when it comes to gear and power lifting it's become quite comical to here someone say "I don't respect geared totals" or I dont care about geared lifts. I have this vision that we are all strength athletes in a small community who should stick together and work off of each other for the bigger picture. Its disgusting that someone who competes in strength sports would trash someone because of a choice they've made to lift. Then to say they are not strong or they are not raw strong is also ridicilous.

Then you have the power lifters trashing the strongmen about how they arent really strong at all and just are good at repping out weight. Thats also ridicilous. However, this is a sport of EGO and I understand why it must exist.

However, Id seriously like to see some of these big mouths do what they preach about on these forums. You want to trash a geared total or disrespect a legend like Bolton then go put up a RESPECTABLE power lifting total, raw, geared, naked whatever. Put up a RESPECTABLE TOTAL then you can speak.

And for the power lifters who trash the strongmen about how they are not really strong go place in the top 3 (maybe 5) at a CHALLENGING contest. Then you can speak. Or go break the max log record or walk up to a 300lb stone and lift it up if your so strong. And no, lifting a 250lb stone with no training is not impressive to a compettitive strongman.

Until you've been considered strong by someone other then your younger brother you should probably shut up, listen, learn, spot, load, and lift. Thats it. Some of these people choose not to do those things. I don't see them getting much further then the Golds Gym squat rack.

What I don't get is we all clearly have heros of the sport who would never engage themselves in such ridicilous talk, especially on PUBLIC forums. They lead by example...they take challenges, train to get strong, stay friends with everyone in the STRENGTH ATHLETE COMMUNITY, and probably don't care if someone just benched 1000lbs with a shirt on or 600lbs with a shirt off.

You can have your opinnions and you dont have to keep them to yourself by any means. Im not a fan of gear for certain reasons and I'm not a fan of most strongman contests either. However, if one of my training partners said he wanted to go do a quarter squat contest I'd be there for him because it's the community of strength that Im so very proud to be in. If they wanted to go do a strict curl compettition the same.

Shut up, listen, learn, spot, load, and lift. Best advice EVER given to me.
Want to learn about gear and truly make a judgement? Get in some. Until then stop reading STRENGTH FORUMS for your one source of information and stop being so IGNORANT.

[Tony Christopher]

Josh,

I've never driven an Indy car either either, but I can tell that a human being who's sitting in one and moving 200+ mph isn't doing so "under his own power".

Powerlifting gear stores energy on the negative portion of the lift and returns it during the positive part of the lift, helping the lifter move more weight. You don't have to actually lift in gear to realize this.

Now, just like it takes skill to turn a lap at Indy at 200+ mph, it takes skill to perfect lifting in gear, I get that too.

The only thing I'm saying is that I don't much care about absolute totals in gear (or absolute speed records in race cars) because those records are a function of the machinery, not the skills of the human athletes.

If you changed the rules for Indy cars and doubled the displacement of the engines, they'd go 300mph instead of 200 ... big freaking deal. Wouldn't mean the drivers are any better.


Have you ever actually used powerifting gear? Do you know how it works? Do you know what it feels like? I think thats his point. Your assumption that the gear does the work for you is based on numbers, not experience. These guys train for their own federation, why should they be worrying about raw world records? Thats like telling an olympic lifter that his Jerk weight doesn't matter because he can't strict press X lbs. Why would he care? They are different lifts and different records.


God D-it I can't believe you dragged me into this dumb argument again

[Jim Harbourne]

You can use all the gear you want. If you are not strong enough to handle the weight, you will fail. You really think a person can stay at a cetain strength level and just keep adding gear to get stronger? Not a chance. If you think that if you squat 600 raw, you can add a suit and go right to a grand, try it. Please make sure the video is on though so we can see you get pinned to the ground with the weight.

[Tony Christopher]

Jim,

No, a person CAN'T add gear and get STRONGER. You're correct. However, a person CAN add gear and BOOST THEIR NUMBER ... absolutely. It happens all the time.

Can a 600 pound raw squatter suit up and hit a grand today. Probably not ... but close, I'm certain there are some 800-900 pound geared squatters who would have trouble walking out and squatting 600 to depth raw. And 10-15 years from now (as gear improves even more), the answer to this question will be yes, there will be people who can hit a 1,000 in gear who can't hit 600 raw.

It won't be me ... I'll be in my late 50s and early 60s by then, and I have no interest in competing or training in gear, but those folks will be out there.

You can use all the gear you want. If you are not strong enough to handle the weight, you will fail. You really think a person can stay at a cetain strength level and just keep adding gear to get stronger? Not a chance. If you think that if you squat 600 raw, you can add a suit and go right to a grand, try it. Please make sure the video is on though so we can see you get pinned to the ground with the weight.

[Kevin Cronin]

Mike...

i don't need to put a respectable total in order to argue against something i find ridiculous.


Billy, youy really do have to have lifted in gear to know what lifting in gear is like. It is NOT the same as your buddy giving you an "it's all you!" spot. I have said many times before, the maxes I have done in gear were much harder than my maxes doen unequipped. As far as having to be able to put up a respectable total, it seems that a lot of people who bag geared lifting do so because its somehow inauthentic, or a parlor trick. Well, if it's so dang easy, how come more people cant do it?

Josh,

I've never driven an Indy car either either, but I can tell that a human being who's sitting in one and moving 200+ mph isn't doing so "under his own power".

Powerlifting gear stores energy on the negative portion of the lift and returns it during the positive part of the lift, helping the lifter move more weight. You don't have to actually lift in gear to realize this.

Now, just like it takes skill to turn a lap at Indy at 200+ mph, it takes skill to perfect lifting in gear, I get that too.

The only thing I'm saying is that I don't much care about absolute totals in gear (or absolute speed records in race cars) because those records are a function of the machinery, not the skills of the human athletes.

no tony, you really do have to have lifted in gear to understand it. I've said this before, but the first time i tried to squat in a super tight suit with the straps up, I put on a weight not much higher than my unequipped max at the time. I forget teh numbers, but i think my unequipped was 515 and the squat i attempted was probably, i dunno, 605ish. I unracked it and immediately lost all tightness in my upper back. I tried coming down but my gear was pushing me all over the place. I probably went down maybe a few inches and tehn barely managed to come back up and rack the weight. Simply put, I WAS NOT STRONG ENOUGH TO USE THE GEAR. What would I have to do to use the gear? GET STRONGER.

And please ... speaking of tired old arguments, get off the "you only have a right to speak if you have a world class total crap". I have a doctoral degree and some other people don't ... does that mean they don't have a right to debate things with me? Sheesh.

debate you in the field in which you got your doctorate? ummm, im sure tehre is SOME wild scenario in which a layperson might have some first hand experience worht mentioning, or could somehow bring somethign worthwhile to the discussion, but as a general rule, i'd say, no they have no business arguing with you in that field.

[Corey DuCharme]

no tony, you really do have to have lifted in gear to understand it. I've said this before, but the first time i tried to squat in a super tight suit with the straps up, I put on a weight not much higher than my unequipped max at the time. I forget teh numbers, but i think my unequipped was 515 and the squat i attempted was probably, i dunno, 605ish. I unracked it and immediately lost all tightness in my upper back. I tried coming down but my gear was pushing me all over the place. I probably went down maybe a few inches and tehn barely managed to come back up and rack the weight. Simply put, I WAS NOT STRONG ENOUGH TO USE THE GEAR. What would I have to do to use the gear? GET STRONGER.

This is off topic, but I'm curious so I'll ask. Having never lifted in gear, and never going to, I am wondering how it is different. Is it more of a balance and stabilization issue, or is the whole approach of strengthening your body to use gear different than conventional training for the lift? Any brief answer would be appreciated.

[dronga]

This is off topic, but I'm curious so I'll ask. Having never lifted in gear, and never going to, I am wondering how it is different. Is it more of a balance and stabilization issue, or is the whole approach of strengthening your body to use gear different than conventional training for the lift? Any brief answer would be appreciated.


Its like any gear, you have to learn the feel of it.

[James Fernandes]

This is off topic, but I'm curious so I'll ask. Having never lifted in gear, and never going to, I am wondering how it is different. Is it more of a balance and stabilization issue, or is the whole approach of strengthening your body to use gear different than conventional training for the lift? Any brief answer would be appreciated.

With gear, obviously you have to train in it, or you WILL NOT be able to add decent weight onto your raw, lets the squat, you can raw squat say 405lbs, but the briefs will add another 60lbs if you learn the groove etc, it takes weeks to learn the groove and to add enough weight, it will be a shock to your body at first, you'll need a VERY STRONG CORE (abs) to hold the weight on your back also.

Some of you strongmen have worn knee wraps, you notice the gains from that, with a suit its more.

[Billy Wolt]

Billy, youy really do have to have lifted in gear to know what lifting in gear is like. It is NOT the same as your buddy giving you an "it's all you!" spot. I have said many times before, the maxes I have done in gear were much harder than my maxes doen unequipped. As far as having to be able to put up a respectable total, it seems that a lot of people who bag geared lifting do so because its somehow inauthentic, or a parlor trick. Well, if it's so dang easy, how come more people cant do it?




I never said it was easy....all i'm saying is similar to what Tony said, gear is helping totals go up....the raw lifts are not moving up at the same pace.

anyway you are right though, I have not lifted in gear. When I have a few hundred dollars to throw away, I will go ahead a buy a bench shirt and squat suit.....but only if I get to train with some experienced people....I will NOT go to my gym, nysc, and trust anyway in there to spot me :)

[Tony Christopher]

Kevin,

You're correct in what you're saying, but you're missing the point.

No, I don't know know what lifting in gear is like ... and I have no doubt that it takes practice to master gear (the first time you use it no doubt that it feels awkward). But that doesn't mean you have to be strong to use it, or that you have to have used it to debate whether it's good for the sport.

Analogy ... the first time I roller bladed it felt a lot more difficult than running. I wasn't used to it and I felt off balance. But 3 guesses whether I can move faster roller blading or running now? Roller blades (gear) help me go faster. Which is fine so long as bladers only compare themselves to other bladers and runners to other runners. But by implication this is NOT the case in PLing. Asking the question "When will the first person hit a 3,000 total?" (in gear) is a bit like asking "When will the first person finish the NYC Marathon in under 1 hour?" (in roller blades)

My answer will be fundamentally the same: "When the gear (roller blades or powerlifting equipment) gets good enough."

Look ... it comes down to this. The best benchers in the world can handle ~ 700 pounds raw. They can handle over 1,000 in their gear. That extra 300-350 pounds isn't magic ... the gear is doing this work. Now of course, it's idiocy to argue that any lifter can strap on a bench shirt and instantly boost their bench by 300 pounds ... but that doesn't take away from the fact that once you master the gear, it currently does about 30% of the lift for you.

As to the doctorate example, again, it depends what is being debated. No sense debating the technical aspects of bowel resection with a surgeon who's an M.D. or the finer points of a legal argument with a lawyer. So no, I'm not going to debate the technical aspects of lifting in gear with someone who's mastered gear. But when it comes to general medical policy or the law in general, sometimes M.D.s and J.D.s are the WORST people in terms of understanding what's going on. For years most docs refused to prescribe strong narcotic pain killers to stage 4 cancer patients on the grounds that such meds carry a risk of addiction / dependency. Technically, of course, they were correct, but they were missing the forest for the trees! People with metastatic cancer, a very poor prognosis, and severe pain don't give a rats a$$ about addiction! It took a lot of pressure from non M.D. patients and patient advocates to get the medical profession to consider a change in this area. And there are countless examples of outside pressure by laypersons forcing change on a reluctant legal system. Most lawyers still believe that crime victims should have little or no say during sentencing because it "prejudices the jury / judge" against the defendant. The only reasons victims have gained a foothold in the CJ system is because of layperson victim advocate groups.

The PLing situation is similar. Folks WITHIN the system don't see the problem clearly ... they have blinders on because they're so closely involved. But believe me Kevin, I've been following strength athletics for 30 years and I can tell you PLing has never been as "sick" as it is now. There has never been as much disrespect, bickering and other crap going on as there is today. Now is this all the fault of gear? Of course not ... but gear, and the multiple feds it has spawned, as well as the multiple judging standards it's encouraged, are the root cause. Sadly, in this case the "doctors" who are the experts in the technical aspects of geared lifting again can't see the forest for the trees.

no tony, you really do have to have lifted in gear to understand it. I've said this before, but the first time i tried to squat in a super tight suit with the straps up, I put on a weight not much higher than my unequipped max at the time. I forget teh numbers, but i think my unequipped was 515 and the squat i attempted was probably, i dunno, 605ish. I unracked it and immediately lost all tightness in my upper back. I tried coming down but my gear was pushing me all over the place. I probably went down maybe a few inches and tehn barely managed to come back up and rack the weight. Simply put, I WAS NOT STRONG ENOUGH TO USE THE GEAR. What would I have to do to use the gear? GET STRONGER.

debate you in the field in which you got your doctorate? ummm, im sure tehre is SOME wild scenario in which a layperson might have some first hand experience worht mentioning, or could somehow bring somethign worthwhile to the discussion, but as a general rule, i'd say, no they have no business arguing with you in that field.

[Josh Kamins]

Except for the fact that nobody who actually understands the sport is comparing geared lifting to raw lifting. They are different federations, the records aren't comparable...

[Kevin Cronin]

Except for the fact that nobody who actually understands the sport is comparing geared lifting to raw lifting. They are different federations, the records aren't comparable...

this post basically said in two sentences what I would have deconstructed line by line. thanks for saving me the time Josh.

[Ian Duggan]

Keep going guys, you're only 4 pages shorter than the thread on religion.

Don't let the lifting community down. YOU CAN DO IT!

:D

[Josh Kamins]

I wonder which has been debated more throughout human existence...God's existence or Gear vs. RAW!!!11

[Eric Jett]

Does anyone think that we'll see a 3,000+ total in the near future?

Yes, just as soon as Chuck Norris decides to enter powerlifting.

[dronga]

Yes, just as soon as Chuck Norris decides to enter powerlifting.


My Count Chocula came up through my nose, Thanks for that laugh this morning!

[Matt Stiefel]

But believe me Kevin, I've been following strength athletics for 30 years and I can tell you PLing has never been as "sick" as it is now. There has never been as much disrespect, bickering and other crap going on as there is today.

Maybe the disrespect, bickering, etc. has something to do with this little thing called the internet.

[Tony Christopher]

Of course, no one really compares raw to geared records ... or records set in one kind of gear to those set in another kind ... or wait, do they?

Actually, people do it all the time, albeit unintentionally.

How often do you read a post on a powerlifting website that simply reads:

Lifter X sets world record by benching 735lbs @ 242! Congratulations to lifter X!

Then everyone (at least anyone who knows anything about powerlifting) wonders:

What Fed did lifter X lift in? What gear (if any) does it allow? What are the judging standards in the that Fed? How might that compare with Lifter Y who benched 705 @ 242 in a different Fed, using slightly different gear, 5 years ago ...

Of course, 99% of the time it's WAY too much work to look up all this information, and try do the "apples to apples" comparison ... so, the "biggest number" simply gets accepted as "the record" (which defacto means that the biggest lifts, set using the most up to date gear, get accepted as "the best").

And that ladies and gentlemen, is the real shame of it all. It doesn't have to be this way. If PLing took place without gear, and hence was a test of human ability (as opposed to a hybrid of human ability & technology) you'd instantly know that the guy who pushed 735 was stronger than the guy who push 705. Right now, this is virtually impossible.

A symptom of a very sick sport.

And BTW, Matt, the internet has certainly added fuel to the fire ... it's a lot easier to question / disrespect someone from behind the safety of a computer screen. But don't kid yourself, the root problem PLing is facing isn't the internet. It's the "bigger number at all costs" (i.e. gear, drugs, creative interpretations of the rules, shoddy judging, proliferation of feds) mentality that prevails in the sport.


this post basically said in two sentences what I would have deconstructed line by line. thanks for saving me the time Josh.

[Josh Kamins]

I guess you may do this.... but most people see what fed a big lift took place in and then the rules are known. Fans of powerlifting tend to know who the lifters are, or ask a little bit about the lift. And non fans....who really cares what they think?

I am in no way a powerlifter by the way, I've lifted in gear before, but I'm not great at it. However, I do follow the sport a bit. The thing is, most people who compete in it are fine with it not becoming a mainstream sport. They do it because they enjoy it. And those of us who consider ourselves fans should know the difference between the feds. If you are too lazy to do "all that hard work" by saying, "wow great lift...what federation is it?" well then I guess that is a problem.

[Billy Wolt]

I guess you may do this.... but most people see what fed a big lift took place in and then the rules are known. Fans of powerlifting tend to know who the lifters are, or ask a little bit about the lift. And non fans....who really cares what they think?

I am in no way a powerlifter by the way, I've lifted in gear before, but I'm not great at it. However, I do follow the sport a bit. The thing is, most people who compete in it are fine with it not becoming a mainstream sport. They do it because they enjoy it. And those of us who consider ourselves fans should know the difference between the feds. If you are too lazy to do "all that hard work" by saying, "wow great lift...what federation is it?" well then I guess that is a problem.


that kind of attitude is why people like me (involved in other strenght sports) don't respect it. ( yea yea...don't bother saying lifters don't care what i think...it's already been said)

oh well. I'll continue going about respecting raw lifts, and geared lifters will continue putting up numbers unattainable without gear. Everyone is happy.

[Josh Kamins]

that kind of attitude is why people like me (involved in other strenght sports) don't respect it. ( yea yea...don't bother saying lifters don't care what i think...it's already been said)

oh well. I'll continue going about respecting raw lifts, and geared lifters will continue putting up numbers unattainable without gear. Everyone is happy.

Sounds good, and lifters will continue to be happy to lift where they please and laugh when people who don't understand gear keep saying "but what can you do RAW????!!!!!111"

[dronga]

I never thought that this topic would blow up like it has, I'm just happy to see some good discussions. Question: When i was heavy into powerlifting(around 6 years ago), the whispers were that because there are so many Feds and so many rules that Powerlifting would never become an Olympic sport, is this a fact?

[Billy Wolt]

and lifters will continue to .............laugh when people who don't understand gear keep saying "but what can you do RAW????!!!!!111"


that's funny....cause when I see a shirted bench, i laugh and say "why is that guy walking like frankenstein?, he should put his arms down".

[Josh Kamins]

I never thought that this topic would blow up like it has, I'm just happy to see some good discussions. Question: When i was heavy into powerlifting(around 6 years ago), the whispers were that because there are so many Feds and so many rules that Powerlifting would never become an Olympic sport, is this a fact?

Yeah, I highly doubt it would be. Maybe using IPF rules, which would probably be best IMO. I think its partly the federations, and partly the fact that they already have Olympic lifting...

[dronga]

Yeah, I highly doubt it would be. Maybe using IPF rules, which would probably be best IMO. I think its partly the federations, and partly the fact that they already have Olympic lifting...

I know it would never happen, but it would be great to see all the Feds hash out some agreement, and finally see Powerlifting in the Olympics, oops, sorry, just day dreaming.

[Josh Kamins]

Yeah, though I'm not sure how much that really adds to the sport. You already have the championships from each of the big feds to watch...

I guess the chance at Olympic glory would help with unification, as people would start to choose whatever gear/no gear was mandatory in the Olympics.

[dronga]

Yeah, though I'm not sure how much that really adds to the sport. You already have the championships from each of the big feds to watch...

I guess the chance at Olympic glory would help with unification, as people would start to choose whatever gear/no gear was mandatory in the Olympics.

I hear you. i think if, by some divine power, all of the Feds did lay some kind of foundation for rules and gear, we would'nt have so much division when it comes to lifting. everything evolves, even humans evolve, and so will gear, just imagine what lifters of a decade ago could do with the gear of today.

[Josh Kamins]

Yeah, but what I was trying to say to Billy is that a lot of lifters don't want to unify. Some enjoy raw lifting and walking out a squat, some enjoy learning crazy gear with a monolift and adapting to it, then theres 50 variations in between. So its kinda pointless to try to make them all assimilate if they are happy where they are. It will always be an underground sport, its never going to be on NBC, you know?

[dronga]

Yeah, but what I was trying to say to Billy is that a lot of lifters don't want to unify. Some enjoy raw lifting and walking out a squat, some enjoy learning crazy gear with a monolift and adapting to it, then theres 50 variations in between. So its kinda pointless to try to make them all assimilate if they are happy where they are. It will always be an underground sport, its never going to be on NBC, you know?
You are correct on all of your points.

[Billy Wolt]

Yeah, but what I was trying to say to Billy is that a lot of lifters don't want to unify. Some enjoy raw lifting and walking out a squat, some enjoy learning crazy gear with a monolift and adapting to it, then theres 50 variations in between. So its kinda pointless to try to make them all assimilate if they are happy where they are. It will always be an underground sport, its never going to be on NBC, you know?

so why didn't you just say so? :)

I'd be happy with one fed, two divisions....geared, and raw. All the inbetween stuff is just silly.

[Kevin Cronin]

Again, I'm trying not to deconstruct these arguments line by line but I will just make these 3 points

1) records set under different conditions (raw, single ply, multi ply etc) are being compared by default - come on, people know kennelly, rychlak, mendy are all multi ply and siders is single. hoornstra is the best mw unequipped bencher (maybe ever,) winters is a fantstic unequipped hw and siders and mendy have both put up HUGE unequipped numbers. I dont see why it's being treated as a detective novel, what teh conditions were...

2) Teh rules are different. On the squat this has validity, different versions of parallel, etc but on the bench and dead - give me a freaking break. If you dont hitch on the deadlift and your butt doesnt come off the bench theres no way to cheat in these lifts. A perfect example - a few weeks ago Siders benched 777 to set an ipf record. heres the vid
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=otxOuYh2Poc
this apparently sent enough IPFers into enough of a tizzy that teh following statements needed to be issued - these are actual headlines from powerliftingwatch.com and I cannot make this stuff up.

Can USAPL Lifters Raise Their Head During The BP?
Submitted by jon on December 4, 2007 - 9:41am.

In response to concerns that Brian Siders lifted his head during his record setting 777 pound bench press at last weekend's USAPL American Open, IPF Cat 1 referee and head judge on the lift, Allan Siegel, says that it's acceptable to raise your head on the descent, "if his head came up on the descent, it's Ok as long as it's down to get the press signal".

Shawn Cain questions that interpretation:

Head Raising While Benching Debate Continues [OOH, CONTINUED? DO YOU THINK THEY'LL DO A THIRD TO ROUND OUT THE TRILOGY?]
Submitted by jon on December 5, 2007 - 9:57am.

In response to Allan Siegel's claim that benchers can raise their heads before getting the press command in the USAPL, Jim Ray asks for official clarification. USAPL President Larry Maile answers that the "lifter may not raise their head during the lift". Siegel then counters by saying that further guidance is required from the IPF Technical Committee on the matter.

These morons can't even agree as to what constitutes a bench press in their own freaking fed. IT'S A BENCH!!! WHO GIVES A MOD EDIT WHAT HIS HEAD WAS DOING?!?!?

At least Siders got the lift. He got ROBBED of his 3rd squat, which I believe woulda been the first IPF 1000 lb squat http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=szUtTuO3_7k

See why that got redlighted? Neither did I the first 3 times I watched teh vid. In fact, I had to read an explanation: his left foot moved at teh top of the lift before he received the rack command. Come on, man, wtf? I know they want the lifter to control the weight, but you know what? I'd say that having 1003 lb start to dump backwards on you, and you being able to catch it demonstrates pretty good frigging control over that weight.

The argument has been made that the WPO interpretation of parallel on the squat made things a joke, far too liberal. The problem is that the argument can be made that the IPF is just as much of a joke, but too conservative. I've HEARD (this is hearsay) of IPF squats being disallowed becauwse the squat only _reached_ parallel, it didnt _break_ parallel. Oh, and this is without even getting into the accusations of partiality being displayed by judges towards lifters from one country over another after Worlds. :rolleyes:

3) I strongly suspect that the same people who hate gear likely believe that the forward pass is the work of the devil. Seriously tho, what sport has NOT evolved? Can you really compare Babe Ruth's - or any player of that era - records with teh modern era? WAY too many variables have changed some favoring the modern player, some not: widening the competition pool by integrating baseball, extending the season to its current 162 games, lowering/raising of the mound, differing dimensions of modern ball parks, diluting the pitching pool through league expansion, the introduction of closers, relievers and the pitching rotation, juiced up batters, juiced up pitchers, year-round strength and conditioning ... shall I go on? It's the same in football - integration, changed rules on what constitutes a tackle, the aforementioned forward pass, different offensive schemes, different defensive schemes, allowign coaches to send in plays from the sidelines (which used to be illegal) - heck, why is OJ not considered the single season rushing champ? He's the only guy to rush for 2000 yards in 14 games - Dickerson and his precious little 2105 cant say that

I know I said 3 points, but I am just cutting and pasting this from an old post I made on t-bag, so this doesnt count. It was in response to concerns raised that "average" people wont take powerlifting seriously if its in gear. I will reprint it here because I think its funny :D

Average Guy: Hey what do you bench?

Unequipped lifter: I bench 405 @ 198

Average guy: oh really? I guess that's not bad, but I had this friend, right? And his uncle's neighbor's kid went to school with a guy who benched 430 lbs

Unequipped: Wow, really? Um, because that would be an great lift if he were in my class, maybe i know him, what's his name?

Average guy: Oh, I dunno, I dont think it's that great, I mean I think Carl over there used to bench more, so its not that good. Hey Carl! What did you used to bench?

Carl [begins to absent-mindedly stretch his triceps}: Ahhh, yep, back in high school I used to press 455. Haven't lifted in a while tho. Been thinking about getting back into it - I could get back up there. Y'know, if I really wanted to.

Unequipped: Are you serious? In high school? That's incredible.

Carl: Well, my neighbor benched more than me. He was hitting 500 for reps ... easy. And he'd only been training for 2 weeks at that point. I'd introduce you to him, but he got hurt a while ago, benching messed up his shoulder.

Unequipped: Holy cow, well, um, Average Guy, what do you bench?

Average: Oh, I usually like to hit 315 for a couple after I warm up.

Unequipped: What? But I've seen you at the gym with 315 on the bar, you're barely bringing it down half way.

Average: right, yeah, that's my bench press. It's dangerous to bring it all the way to the chest. Instead I just like to get a good squeeze at the top of my cable flyes - it really isolates the inner pecs.

------------------

Moral of the story: why on earth are you worried about the need to justify to this hypothetical average guy? No matter how much you bench, whether it's shirted or unequipped, the average guy will ALWAYS a) know a friend of a friend who did more and/or b) have done more himself (usually with very little time training) but doesnt work out anymore and/or c) have done more himself (usually with very little time training) but got injured and/or c) claim to do more, having no idea that his "bench press" and your bench press are nothing alike in terms of form/difficulty.

**********************

I wasted way more time typing this response than I intended to :BB:

[Tony Christopher]

Josh,

Thing is, powerlifting USED to be on NBC. I clearly remember watching it on "Wide World of Sports" (actually I think that was ABC ... but you get the idea ... network television). Then it "regressed" to being on ESPN once in awhile ... now you can't even find it on ESPN2 (although there's plenty of darts and high school cheerleading competitions).

Why do you think that is?

Could it have something it do with the "f*ck everyone, we lift the way we want ... doesn't matter what anyone (including other types of strength athletes) think!" attitude that prevails in powerlifting.

If, as you say, the PLing community is happy with this ... I guess all the power to 'em, but I really don't think that's the case. If you cycle through the messages on www.powerliftingwatch.com over the last few years you see plenty of:

"The sport is in trouble, what can we do to fix it?"

and

"Why don't we get any respect? How come a world champion like Andy Bolton still has to drive a truck for a living when a 3rd string NFL quarterback makes $100,000 a game for sitting on his a$$ 90% of time?"

That implies to me the community realizes there's a problem ... trouble is, too few people are willing to address "the elephants in the room" (gear, millions of feds, $hitty judging, drugs) and do what's necessary to fix it.

Yeah, but what I was trying to say to Billy is that a lot of lifters don't want to unify. Some enjoy raw lifting and walking out a squat, some enjoy learning crazy gear with a monolift and adapting to it, then theres 50 variations in between. So its kinda pointless to try to make them all assimilate if they are happy where they are. It will always be an underground sport, its never going to be on NBC, you know?

[Tony Christopher]

Kevin,

You bring up some valid points, but I don't think they tell the whole story.

1) Yeah, it's not hard to figure out who the best SHW benchers in the world are. Point conceded, but they're the "movie stars" of powerlifting. Now tell me who the best 220lber in the world is. How about the best 165. Now tell me who the best 242 squatter in the world is and give me your opinion how his lift (whoever it may be) compares to Mark Henry's 948 raw squat. All of a sudden it's not so easy, is it. If everyone was lifting raw it would be ... x lbs is less than x + 5 lbs, thus the guy who lifted x + 5lbs is stronger, QED.

2) Certainly you're right that you can't compare statistics from team sports from one era to the next ... as you say, way too many variables change. But in a basic elemental strength sport, like say, powerlifting or olympic lifting, you should be able to. A guy clean and jerks 250kg today we know he's better than the guy who clean and jerked 200kg 10 years ago or 20 years ago or 50 years ago etc. In powerlifting we should be able to do the same thing. We COULD have had a wonderfully simple sport with very few variables, but we messed it up in our desire to inflate our egos with bigger numbers and our desire to make money marketing gear. In my eyes that sucks.

3) There's a lot of truth in your "my 3rd cousin's friend's uncle used to bench 600 for reps in college before he hurt his shoulder" story. Gym clowns are everywhere. Still, the funny thing is, we can recognize the gym clown for what he is. When some dude loads up 500lbs on the bar and uses 3 spotters and a bounce to press it once we laugh and think "idiot, I bet he isn't even moving 300 of that ... 3 plates would bury him, who's he kidding." Yet, when the shirted bencher pushes 1000lbs and we KNOW 800 (the same 200lbs ego boost as the gym clown) would bury him we no longer laugh ... we now say. He's a serious athlete using legitimate equipment in a legitimate sport." For me that doesn't make a whole lot of sense to me. We've just institutionalized gym clownishness.

I'm posting more than I thought I would about this too ... what can I do ... I'm injured so I can't train and so I'm bored.


1) records set under different conditions (raw, single ply, multi ply etc) are being compared by default - come on, people know kennelly, rychlak, mendy are all multi ply and siders is single. hoornstra is the best mw unequipped bencher (maybe ever,) winters is a fantstic unequipped hw and siders and mendy have both put up HUGE unequipped numbers. I dont see why it's being treated as a detective novel, what teh conditions were...

3) I strongly suspect that the same people who hate gear likely believe that the forward pass is the work of the devil. Seriously tho, what sport has NOT evolved? Can you really compare Babe Ruth's - or any player of that era - records with teh modern era? WAY too many variables have changed some favoring the modern player, some not: widening the competition pool by integrating baseball, extending the season to its current 162 games, lowering/raising of the mound, differing dimensions of modern ball parks, diluting the pitching pool through league expansion, the introduction of closers, relievers and the pitching rotation, juiced up batters, juiced up pitchers, year-round strength and conditioning ... shall I go on? It's the same in football - integration, changed rules on what constitutes a tackle, the aforementioned forward pass, different offensive schemes, different defensive schemes, allowign coaches to send in plays from the sidelines (which used to be illegal) - heck, why is OJ not considered the single season rushing champ? He's the only guy to rush for 2000 yards in 14 games - Dickerson and his precious little 2105 cant say that

Moral of the story: why on earth are you worried about the need to justify to this hypothetical average guy? No matter how much you bench, whether it's shirted or unequipped, the average guy will ALWAYS a) know a friend of a friend who did more and/or b) have done more himself (usually with very little time training) but doesnt work out anymore and/or c) have done more himself (usually with very little time training) but got injured and/or c) claim to do more, having no idea that his "bench press" and your bench press are nothing alike in terms of form/difficulty.

[Paul_Koskinen]

Powerlifting, like Strongman & Boxing, attracts the greatest interest at the heaviest weights. I can't see many, other than those who compete, having any interest in formulas etc. In sports it's the absolute highest numbers that get press attention and fans. Hence the topic title.

[Josh Kamins]

I'm posting more than I thought I would about this too ... what can I do ... I'm injured so I can't train and so I'm bored.

:D Same here, sick so I can't train. gotta do something...