How often do you drink protein shakes?

[ClayEdgin]

I've found myself with quite a surplus of quality protein for once in my life and am no longer resigned to gag on the GNC stuff. I've started taking two protein shakes a day, an extra 72g over what I normally consume in a day, as well as eating four cans of tuna which adds up to another 130g of protein. I really like tuna so 4 cans a day isn't hard, and at only $.50 a can it's a good quality source of protein.

I know there's some formula for figuring out how much protein is enough and I thought it was like 1 or 2 grams of protein per pound of bodyweight. I'm 325-330 right now so if I'm supposed to ingest 660g each day then I may need some more internal organs to process that stuff.

Do your guys' protein intake vary from workout day to non-workout day? I presume you'd take a lot more protein before and after a workout (and carbs after a workout) to really help out.

[Cassidy Drake]

My intake is the same every day. I weight 220, and generally I ake in 220 or so a day.

[Eric Johnson]

I take a protein shake in the morning and at night before bed, everyday. On lifting days I take a shake with maltodextrin and Creatine before my workout and a shake with malto after. If I am feeling hungry and don't have any good food around I will drink a weight gainer shake for a snake every now and then.

[D.J. Satterfield]

Clay, my diet and supplementation stays the same everyday other than workout days I take creatine in 100% grape juice following a workout.

[CharlesDMickey]

I think 2 grams per pound is excessive.

I shoot for 2 grams per pound of lean mass. Basically I just subtract the weight of my body fat and use that as a target.

So for me that’s not a lot of protein! LOL

[SBaier]

As a rule it is 1gram per pound of bodyweight or 2grams per pound of lean mass for athletes. 660g would be very difficult for your body to deal with over a long period of time and with little or no additional benefit over the above suggested amount, why take it. I'm not as consistant as others, but I try to hit 250-350g per day of protein (and I weigh between 320 and 330). I get about 1/2 of my protein from shakes - it is just easier for me.

[Paul Neuhaus]

My protein intake is the same every day, whether I'm training that day or not. Some guys do take less on non-training days. But, that's when your muscles are recovering and rebuilding. If protein is the building block for muscle, it would make sense not to reduce your intake on non-training days. I'd feel like I was wasting my time in the gym if I didn't give my body what it needs to recover.
So....drink up!!
Oh yeah...I agree with Shawn on the formula, too.

[Clint Darden]

A 5 pound jug of powder here is about $100, so I don't consume much in the form of powder...lol.

Clint

[Cassidy Drake]

Where do you live? There is no way it would cost that much even shipped from the states.

[nathan fitzgerald]

I've found myself with quite a surplus of quality protein for once in my life and am no longer resigned to gag on the GNC stuff. I've started taking two protein shakes a day, an extra 72g over what I normally consume in a day, as well as eating four cans of tuna which adds up to another 130g of protein. I really like tuna so 4 cans a day isn't hard, and at only $.50 a can it's a good quality source of protein.

I know there's some formula for figuring out how much protein is enough and I thought it was like 1 or 2 grams of protein per pound of bodyweight. I'm 325-330 right now so if I'm supposed to ingest 660g each day then I may need some more internal organs to process that stuff.

Do your guys' protein intake vary from workout day to non-workout day? I presume you'd take a lot more protein before and after a workout (and carbs after a workout) to really help out.


Tuna is great as long as it is not Albacore. That much Albacore would be toxic because of the Mercury content.

[Paul Neuhaus]

A 5 pound jug of powder here is about $100, so I don't consume much in the form of powder...lol.

Clint
I'm sure you can find it for much cheaper than that on the internet. I pay $52 for a 10# bag of Optimum Nutrition Whey Protien.

[Jacob Sauter]

On average I consume 2g per lb. So I weigh 205-210, and eat well over 400g a day. Some say thats too much, but I would rather get my calories from a proteins, than a carbs.

Not even half of those protein grams come from shakes. Most are lean meats.

[Joshua Davis]

I haven't had any protein shakes except when training at other people's houses... so I have had two in the past two weeks or so.

I usually just make sure I have a low-fat carb/protein source within 3 hours of training, and maybe a big bowl of cottage cheese, egg salad, and an apple afterwards.

I am probably getting in around or less than 150gm of protein a day, and personally, I am training just as hard and recovering just as fast as I ever did consuming 300-400 grams of protein per day. My strength levels are already starting to rival and topple my levels before I stopped training over a year ago! I have only been "back in training" for about a month.

I did just order a whey/malto mix that was really cheap, just so I can use it as a pre/post drink (kinda like a gainer). I could live without it, and I only plan on using it for training days - otherwise will be my normal eggs/tuna/beef/chicken fare.

[Paul Neuhaus]

You know if you don't consume enough carbs for energy expenditure then the protein is converted for energy useage instead of muscle building and repair right?
Yep. Believe me...there's no shortage of healthy carbs in my diet.

[Cassidy Drake]

That's great! My response was more geared for Jacob, but either way. It was just a point that is prooven in every college level nutrition class.

[Jay O'Neill]

:D On average yor body can only metabolize 33 grams of protein every 3 hours...
So if you are buying a drink that advertizes 50 + grams of protein per serving, You will have the most expensive urine on the block.

[Cassidy Drake]

That's not entirely true either.

[Jay O'Neill]

Actuall it is entirely true... give or take a gram or two. My undergrad was Biology and Microbiology.

[Jay O'Neill]

You do the Math... the human body assimilates 33 grams of protein over 3 hours... That's a fact.
Sorry to rain on your parade. Do you realize how trully hard the body has to work to breakdown protein? It is not how much you metabolize... It is how well you do it.

[D.Norris]

Every ones Body will use diffrent amounts of protein at tdiffrent times of the day it will only use what it need, its better to have to much than to little!

The 33 grams every 3 hours is BS!

Thats like saying a 120lb woman will need the same amount of protein as myself (371lb)?

[Cassidy Drake]

You do the Math... the human body assimilates 33 grams of protein over 3 hours... That's a fact.
Sorry to rain on your parade. Do you realize how trully hard the body has to work to breakdown protein? It is not how much you metabolize... It is how well you do it.
I have done the math. I have also seen studies backing both sides, and real worls results stating what you are claiming is nothing more than pure BS and nothing but speculation. SO you avoided the question. Do you care to tell me that guys like Shawn, Jesse, Mike Ruggeria, Ed Coan, Jon Anderson can grow and continue at their performance levels off of 165 grams of protein a day? That reason there along prooves your logic is flawed.

[Cassidy Drake]

Every ones Body will use diffrent amounts of protein at tdiffrent times of the day it will only use what it need, its better to have to much than to little!

The 33 grams every 3 hours is BS!

Thats like saying a 120lb woman will need the same amount of protein as myself (371lb)?
Exactly my point.

[Jay O'Neill]

You can banter back and forth all you want. The fact is that a human maintaining weight and working out uses .6 to 1 gram per KILOGRAM of Body weight. if you weighed 135 KG. or aourn 300 pounds you would need... 135 or so grams of protein.
You can argue all you want. You can't argue with science.

[Jay O'Neill]

You can banter back and forth all you want. The fact is that a human maintaining weight and working out uses .6 to 1 gram per KILOGRAM of Body weight. if you weighed 135 KG. or around 300 pounds you would need... hello... 135 or so grams of protein.
You can argue with me all you want. You can't argue with science.

[Cassidy Drake]

That's BS and you know it. Realw world results triumph your science(which you have yet to post a study of) all the time. You want proof look at any major NFL, WSM,PL, BB athlete. The proof is in the pudding. I mean really now lets all run out and start eating 130 grams of protein a day, because that is all our bodies can assimilate? Laughable dude.

[Jay O'Neill]

YOUR STUDIES... performed by the same companies that make the PROTEIN drinks... Wake up! you must have slept throught your nutrition class.

[ClayEdgin]

If you're awake 15 hours and you eat every 3 hours, you can actually eat 6 times.

I would think that a larger person's internal organs can process more protein than a smaller person's organs because they're used to working harder. True?

[Jay O'Neill]

No... makes no differance actually. the protein is metabolized in duodenum which is a small protion of the intestine just past the stomach.

[Paul Neuhaus]

Jay, I don't know where you come up with this "magical" amount of protein that works for everyone. People come in all sizes with different lifestyles. A guy who competes in sports and weighs 300 lbs will have to consume way more total calories just to maintain size and strength than a guy who weighs 150 lbs. All that lean muscle mass requires a lot of protein because it's the building block for muscle. And the more muscle you have, the more calories you burn even while sleeping.

Now, do some math to figure the formula that works best for you. For example...the 30/40/30 formula. Your daily caloric intake would be 30% protein, 40% carbs, and 30%fat. If the 300 lb guy is using this formula and has found that he needs to consume 5000 calories a day, that means he's getting 1500 calories from protein. You won't even come close to that with a mere 165 grams of protein.

This is the same crap as saying that everyone should drink 8 glasses of water per day. Again...we're all different sizes. A 150 lber doesn't require the same daily water intake as a 300 lber, because the big guy needs MORE than 8 glasses a day.

Look at the Surgeon General's recommended daily diet of 2000 calories...CRAP. We're all different sizes with different lifestyles.

You want a study? Here's a study for you. I weigh 228 lbs. I consume 220-250 grams of protein per day with the right balance of carbs and fat to maintain size and performance. When I don't get enough of a balanced diet, I lose weight and I don't perform as well. Every night, my body burns off about 2 lbs of bodyweight while sleeping. I know this because I weigh myself before bed and when I wake up.

Ask any heavyweight who struggles to maintain size and performance and he'll tell you the same. The only reason I don't consume more, is because I compete in the >231 class.

And we didn't need a laboratory to figure it out, either.

[Jay O'Neill]

Boy you guys are really antagonistic...
When it comes to protein synthesis... more is not better... better is more!
Protein carries nitrogen which helps the body build and repair.
Certain proteins will be more efficient nitrogen carriers and hence will help muscle repair.
It's not the amount of protein you consume... it is how well the protein you consume works.
Remember a supplement called NO2... nitrogen synthesis...
Even in a severely burned person we give them parentaral (IV) nutrition and the max dose of protein is 1.6 to 2 grams per KILo because we know they are not going to metabolize all of it. They will excrete alot... we just want them to get the most they can use.

When you are tking protein supplements... even you little guys... under 231 will have very yello and concentrated urine... hello, this is the excess Protein...

Paul... I weigh 280 pounds at 5'11" I know about protein and supplementation. When I was powerlifting I had an 1800 total... I know about Muscle breakdown and repair.

When it comes to caloric intake... yes... more is better...and bigger guys will need more. And smaller guys will need more to become bigger guys.

Math I am aware of... and science... not the math you get from a protein can or ad in a magazine. Which is why I have gone from 235 pounds to 280 pounds in the past 3 years.

If you lose 2 pounds of body weight every night... you better not go to sleep!
nighty -night.

*** just a reminder... this forum is meant to be helpful, not to rip people whose opinion you don't agree with***

[Paul Neuhaus]

When you are tking protein supplements... even you little guys... under 231 will have very yello and concentrated urine... hello, this is the excess Protein...


I'm well aware of that. That's why the majority of my protein comes from meat and dairy.
All the scientific "mumbo-jumbo" doesn't dismiss the fact that my diet works for me. And, no, my urine is not "very yellow and concentrated". But, let's not talk about pee.

[SBaier]

I have kept quiet so far, but this is the area I work. Currently, we are working on a couple amino acid studies and several protein studies. Although I agree that the supplement industry has pushed the concept of more protein the better, there are a couple flaws in the 33grams per 3 hours. Before I get to far into this, lets just look at a couple variables that haven't even been set yet... like protein type or composition, whole protein vs. hydrolyzed or free amino acid blend, meal composition (strictly protein or is fat present). Protein metabolism doesn't occur in the duodenum, protein or nitrogen kinetics is systemic. Digestion occurs in the stomach and absorption of peptides and free amino acids occurs in the duodenum. Realistically, there are limitations to the bodies ability to "deal" with too much protein. However, the estimate of 33grams is flawed for the simple reason that there are individual differences, not just on body size, but genetics. For example, there are some cultures that have learned to live on nothing but high fat and protein for all nutritional needs including total energy. I am definitely a believer in the more is not better on protein intake... at some point it just isn't practical. I definitley recommend the same concept to people that Jay is pointing out to eveyone, that to divide total protein intake into equal portions taken throughout the day is a much better approach. Just my $.02, but feel free to fight it out! :D

[Jay O'Neill]

Thanks Shawno... just trying to make a point.
That's what I get for trying to save people a few bucks...
My 33 grams is approximate... but is pretty close... I wll have to site a journal to make a point. Not wanting to waste time getting too technical.

[SBaier]

Jay - your comment on burn patience is an interesting one. Trauma patients have a unique protein/nitrogen metabolism equation. It is difficult to make the connection to healthy subjects because trauma and burn patients are dumping so much N into the system from breakdown of damaged tissues. Therefore, although protein intake is still needed in these patients, essential amino acids become the limiting factor in protein metabolism of the patients. And intake must be closely watched, as I'm sure you know, kidney failure is seen from the tremendous amount of N the the kidneys are dealing with as a result of the injury or sepsis may have imposed.

[Jay O'Neill]

Indeed... but even in healthy out patient settings we have seen Kidney failure due to tremendous amounts of protein being filtered through the kidneys...

[SBaier]

Really... in healthy people you have seen kidney failure from excess protein intake. What were the intakes... 200+ grams in a single dose for repeated bouts? I would be curious to hear about what kind of intakes they were hitting.

[Jay O'Neill]

20 yo male ingesting 4-6 protein shakes per day around 35-50 grams per drink.

that's the one I can site. We often place patients on protein restricted diets to to there GFR.
One of the first problems in Kidney failure is protein urea.

[Mr_T]

I weight 200lbs right now and usually get around 225grams per day. My intake comes in a balanced form of lean meats, dairy products, and shakes. I eat every 3 hours and typically eat somewhere around 35-40grams per meal. I usually eat 6 times per day so you can do the math if you want. ;)

I drink 3 shakes on workout days: one when I wake up, one post-workout with creatine and carbs, and one prior to bed. On rest days I only drink 2 shakes: upon waking and before bed. I don't count my shakes as meals either.

[Jay O'Neill]

Perfect... aprox. 40 grams per ingestion!

[Cassidy Drake]

20 yo male ingesting 4-6 protein shakes per day around 35-50 grams per drink.

that's the one I can site. We often place patients on protein restricted diets to to there GFR.
One of the first problems in Kidney failure is protein urea.
Care to share this information with the rest of us?

[Jay O'Neill]

GFR glomerular filtration rate... sorry.

[ClayEdgin]

I imagine that only taking protein shakes all day long can mess you up no matter what your age or athletic level.

[Jay O'Neill]

You said it Clay...
Iwas just offering info. This info just like training advice is subjective,,, wrapped in some fact. Take for what it is worth.
Yours in strength

Jay

[Cassidy Drake]

GFR glomerular filtration rate... sorry.
No, I meant your study or referance you are speaking of..

[Jay O'Neill]

The study, Cassidy, was a young man I saw in my clinic 2 years ago.
When I was in the service we actuall had to give a class to our junior Marines about proper protein supplementation and other types of supplements as we were having 1-2 marines in the E.R. with early Kidney failure.

[SBaier]

Let's keep this discussion informative! We don't need to take this down the wrong road.

[Cassidy Drake]

It is informative. I just want omse proof, not he said, she said bias. Studies etc, anything in a medical journal etc. ANYTHING

[SBaier]

I agree this is an informative thread... I like discussion, but some of the comments were getting a little too offensive and I just want to keep it on track (I had to delete a few posts because there was nothing in them other than the makings of a good cat fight -- :D ).

[Cassidy Drake]

i am relating life experiance. I have seen this in practice. I can't site names due to patient confidentiality. There is no he-said she-said. I see sick people for a living.
Ok, so my real life experiance with athletes and others as a trainer say that the 35 grams assimilated at a time is ubsubstantiated and nothing more than here say. Heck kidney problems can be from a number of things other than high protein diets. I spent my first 4 years in the Air Force as a **** and almost all of us followed a higher protein diet, yet I have no record of anyoneover 300 ever having a problem, or others on deployments. But hey you must be correct since you say so.

[Jay O'Neill]

Here we go again... well I don't have anymore time fro this this morning... I have patients to see...
Have a good day.

[Cassidy Drake]

Give me a break. So if someone doesn't agree with you, then they are wrong? :BB:

[Jay O'Neill]

i never asked to be "agreed with". You have your opinion based on "personal Experiance". I have mine based on my personal experiance and medical knowledge.

[Cassidy Drake]

Great, so we can agree to disagree :mag:

[Jay O'Neill]

YES indeed! Now we can go on with our lives getting bigger and stronger!

[Jay O'Neill]

Just a little factoid from a published source.

8 Points to remember about protein:

1. Our body gets all but 1/6 of the protein it needs from recycling old body tissue. This amounts to 100-300 grams. The 1/6 we don't recycle must come from essential amino acids we eat.

2. Hard work does not require more protein!

3. Protein is required for growing, body repair, and maintenance. A person with serious physical injuries or illness requires much more protein.

4. If we do not get enough protein, our bodies will steal it from our muscles. This is also true when we are ill. We need more protein, but often can't eat it.

5. North Americans generally eat 3 to 5 times more protein than they need. The protein not needed is broken down further and most of it is used to make energy. However there is some left over product from this process which is not good for our bodies.

6. We can only absorb about 25 grams of protein at one time. The rest is broken down and burned or stored as fat.

7. Plant protein is absorbed at about 70-90%, animal protein at 85-100%. There is concern among some about plant protein not being absorbed as readily as animal protein. This is not a problem as we in North America presently eat 2 to 3 times the RDA for protein anyway.

8. North Americans have been brain washed into believing they must get their protein from meat. Third world nations all over the globe, who get enough calories in their diets, eat little or no meat yet many of them are in excellent health from eating only plant protein.

All contents copyright (C) 1996, Al Durtschi. et al. All rights reserved.
Revised: 29 Mar 97

[Cassidy Drake]

Protein is required for growing, body repair, and maintenance





Here is the main point. The rest of it is only really half believable. SOunds like nothing more than a rant on a forum to me.

[Jay O'Neill]

No it was published from a journal... I even sited the referance for you. From the Journal of American Family Prac.

[Cassidy Drake]

Now we can only absorb 25 grams at a time? You should know of all people when it comes to working out and the knowledge of it, doctors are usually clueless to it and anything about it. Care to give a actual link?

[Cassidy Drake]

Geee ya know I could be wrong, but naaa wait a minute, here ya go.





Athletes and Physically Active Individuals
It has been shown that the protein requirements for athletes may well exceed that suggested by the (USRDA) .80 g/kg/day. If an individuals protein requirement increases in response to exercise, then changes in protein metabolism will become apparent. When the body is in a homeostatic state, protein synthesis is equal to protein degradation and the protein requirement of the body for tissue maintenance is satisfied. The most common way to detect changes in protein metabolism is to assess nitrogen balance of the body.

Positive nitrogen balance occurs when the total nitrogen excreted in the urine, feces and sweat is less than the total nitrogen ingested. Positive nitrogen balance must exist for new tissue to be synthesized. When dietary protein intake or total energy intake is inadequate to maintain tissues total nitrogen balance, negative nitrogen balance occurs and new tissue is unable to be synthesized. When the body is in nitrogen balance, protein and energy intake is sufficient to maintain tissue protein needs and the amounts of nitrogen entering and exiting the body are equal.

The results of nitrogen balance studies on endurance athletes indicates that these athletes have protein requirements that exceed the USRDA of 0.8 g/kg/day. A study found that endurance athletes (defined as training for at least 12 hours per week for at least 5 years) require 1.37 g/kg/day of protein to maintain nitrogen balance compared to 0.73 g/kg/day for sedentary individuals.

It appears that weight training can also lead to a daily protein requirement that exceeds the current USRDA. It has been found that 2.0 to 2.2 g/kg/day of protein was barely sufficient to maintain nitrogen balance during moderate intensity weight training. Furthermore, weightlifter's protein requirements increased proportionally to training intensity. Research has shown that 2.0 to 2.6 g/kg/day of protein are required for periods of very intense weight training, whereas protein intakes of 2.0 g/kg/day maintained a positive nitrogen balance during periods of less intense weight training.

It is clear that athletes need to consume more protein than the current USRDA for 0.8 g/kg/day in order to maintain nitrogen balance. Conversely, since the requirements of carbohydrates, and overall calories also increase with physical activity, the recommended proportion of calories from protein does not change significantly. With a calorie sufficient diet, protein requirement values needed to maintain positive nitrogen balance of both weight trained and endurance trained athletes constitutes intakes of 12% to 20% of total daily calories.

Paul GL. Dietary protein requirements of physically active individuals. Sports Med 1989; 8:154-176.

[Cassidy Drake]

Seems as though the kidney reasoning is a myth as far as the researchers are concerned at Vanderbilt.







PROTEIN AND ATHLETES
What evidence is there to support or disprove claims that high intake levels of protein help build muscle mass and better athletes? Muscles are made mostly of protein, so logically one would think that the more protein in the diet, the more muscle one should have. Certain types of exercise, weight lifting for example, do stimulate muscle growth. So, a combination of weight training and large amounts (the more, the better) should be beneficial, right? Not exactly. The most recent indications are that dietary protein in excess of the current recommended dietary allowance (0.8 grams of protein per kilogram of body weight per day) is likely needed for optimal muscle growth (5.) "The current recommended dietary allowance doesn't seem to be enough for elite athletes who are training every day, who are growing, or who are training especially hard right before an event" (6.) However, the benefit appears to plateau at intakes well below the levels typically consumed by many athletes. Thus, for best results, a diet high in protein is beneficial for muscle growth, but only to an extent. Once a certain intake level is reached, any additional protein taken in will not help build muscle mass any more.

A study done by Fern et. al (1991) showed that greater gains in body mass occur over four weeks of heavy weight training when young men consumed 3.3 versus 1.3 grams if protein per kilogram of body mass. In addition a study done by Meredith et al. (1992) found that a daily dietary supplement containing 23 grams of protein combined with weight training can enhance muscle mass gains relative to similar subjects who trained with out the supplement. Both of the studies show support for the belief that increased protein in the diet can help increase muscle mass, but it should be noted that these effects were found with a combination of intake and training. These two studies further indicated that a protein intake of about 1.7 - 1.8 grams of protein per kilogram of body weight per day, when combined with weight training will enhance muscle development compared with similar training with an intake of 0.8 grams of protein per kilogram of body weight per day (5.) However, it is important to note that there is little good evidence that the very high protein intakes (more than 2 grams per kilogram of body weight per day) typically consumed by strength athletes are beneficial. Moreover, it is possible to obtain this quantity of protein without special supplementation assuming a mixed diet containing sufficient energy is consumed.

Endurance athletes differ from strength training athletes because they do not develop the muscle mass that weight training athletes do. Endurance athletes, nevertheless can benefit from protein intakes over the recommended dietary allowance because the exercise they participate in does still alter protein metabolism, in a different way. In weight training glucose is used for energy and because weight training is intense, fat and protein cannot be use for energy production. The protein intake increase for strength athletes is to supplement and help tissue and muscle rebuilding, after the exercise. Because endurance athletes exercise for long periods of time, (2 - 5 hours at a time) they can use protein as a source of 5% - 10% of their total energy expended. This protein needs to be replaced as well as protein that is used for tissue repair, thus an elevated level of intake can be beneficial. The same applies to endurance athletes as strength training athletes -- a point exists at which any more protein taken in is no longer beneficial.

CONSEQUENCES OF EXCESS PROTEIN INTAKE
A common misconception about excess protein in the diet is that it can cause kidney damage; excess protein cannot cause kidney damage even though it does make the kidneys work harder. When protein is metabolized nitrogen is a by - product; the kidneys work to remove the extra nitrogen from the body. As of yet, no studies have found an high rate of kidney problems in strength athletes as would be expected if too much protein caused kidney damage. Also, Zaragoza et al. (1987) studied animals with very high protein intakes for more than half their life span and found no serious adverse effects.

High intake levels of protein can lead to increased water loss because the body excretes water to dispose of urea, a substance formed in the breakdown of protein. Water loss coupled with the fact that most athletes loose a great amount of water through sweat, can lead to dehydration if fluid intake is not properly monitored. An excess of purified protein can, however, take calcium away from bones, thus predisposing one for osteoporosis.

PROTEIN SUPPLEMENTS
Although protein is seldom used as an energy source, and despite the fact that the average American diet far exceeds the recommended daily allowance for protein, many athletes still believe that supplementary protein can enhance athletic performance. Athletes do need additional calories for energy, but too much protein intake will be stored as fat. Most protein supplements provide a lot of calories as well as protein. A balanced diet can easily provide enough protein for an athlete, and protein supplements are not necessary. Again, the average athlete cannot be turned into a champion simply by altering their diet or specific nutrient intakes. The most important determinant of athletic prowess is something over which we exert no control: our genes. Most experts rank physical training next; good nutrition comes in third (3.) Of special importance to remember is the fact that enough protein to meet needs can be obtained from a balanced diet and the fact that a protein intake of more than the recommended dietary allowance can only be potentially beneficial (to an extent) for elite athletes.

REFERENCES
(1) Aronson, Virginia. (1989). Protein and Miscellaneous Ergogenic Aids. Physician and Sports Medicine, 14, 199-202.

(2) Clark, Nancy. (1991). How To Pack a Meatless Diet Full of Nutrients. Physician and Sports Medicine, 19, 31-34.

(3) Henderson, Doug. Nutrition and the Athlete. FDA Consumer, 21, 18-21.

(4) Houston, Michael. (1992) Protein and Amino Acid Needs of Athletes. Nutrition Today, 27, 36-38.

(5) Lemon, Peter. (1996). Is Increased Dietary Protein Necessary or Beneficial for Individuals with a Physically Active Lifestyle? Nutrition Reviews, 54, S169-S173.

(6) McCarthy, Paul. (1989). How Much Protein Do Athletes Really Need? Physician and Sports Medecine, 17, 173-175.

[Cassidy Drake]

And another.










Strength Exercise And Protein Needs
It is well known that carbohydrates are very important for athletes who train extensively with weights. These athletes need to eat enough dietary carbohydrates to provide energy for their high-intensity exercises. In contrast, since strength training consists of short bouts of extremely intense effort, it would seem unlikely that amino acid oxidation is an important source of energy for such exercise. However, some published results suggest that additional dietary protein can also enhance strength gains.

Five of 10 elite weight lifters studied by Polish scientists were found by nitrogen balance methods to be consuming inadequate protein even when their protein intake was 2.0 grams/kg. of body weight per day.15 Unfortunately, one of these five athletes consumed a diet containing inadequate total calories. Because insufficient food intake elevates protein needs, the data from this individual are difficult to interpret. However, even when this subject is excluded, four of the 10 weight lifters had protein needs exceeding 2.0 grams/kg. of body weight per day.

In another study, five subjects whose diets consisted of 0.8 gram/kg. of body weight per day of protein and whose total calorie intake was adequate experienced a decreased cell mass (measured by potassium-40) over six weeks of strength training.16 With continued training and an increase in protein intake to 1.6 grams/kg. of body weight per day, their cell mass increased.

A study of nitrogen balance in bodybuilders demonstrated increased protein needs relative to controls and estimated the RDA for bodybuilders to be about 0.9 gram/kg. of body weight per day.17

Finally, impressive strength gains of 5 percent and size gains of 6 percent in world-class weight lifters were observed over several months of strength training when the athletes increased their dietary Protein from 1.8 grams/kg. to 3.5 grams/kg. of body weight per day.18

Compared to the protein intakes of most strength athletes, the protein levels that produced gains in muscle strength and size in the world-class weight lifters19 are greater than those suggested by most studies that use the nitrogen-balance technique.20 This may mean that although a positive nitrogen balance can be maintained during a strength-training program with a protein intake equal to or slightly above the RDA, higher intakes are necessary for optimal gains in muscle size and strength. Preliminary evidence for this exists in a study that found greater nitrogen retention (estimated from dietary nitrogen minus urinary nitrogen) and greater gains in lean body (muscle) mass during four weeks of strength training when subjects consumed 2.4 grams of protein per kg. body weight per day compared to 0.8 gram of protein per kilogram body weight per day.21

Together, the studies suggest that a protein intake in excess of the RDA will enhance the muscle strength and size gains induced by a strength program. Such a conclusion is somewhat speculative, however. Most of the studies use indirect or incomplete measurements and few subjects. Future studies with larger sample sizes and more direct measures are needed to confirm the observations.

People attempting to increase muscle strength and size through strength training might try consuming the equivalent of 1.2 to 2.0 grams protein to kilogram body weight per day (about 150-250 percent of the current protein RDA for adults).

[SBaier]

"A common misconception about excess protein in the diet is that it can cause kidney damage; excess protein cannot cause kidney damage even though it does make the kidneys work harder. When protein is metabolized nitrogen is a by - product; the kidneys work to remove the extra nitrogen from the body. As of yet, no studies have found an high rate of kidney problems in strength athletes as would be expected if too much protein caused kidney damage. Also, Zaragoza et al. (1987) studied animals with very high protein intakes for more than half their life span and found no serious adverse effects."

I think an unusually high protein intake over time is still not a wise health choice, but I do agree with the basic premise of the above statement. That is why I questioned the incidence of kidney failure in healthy adults... it just isn't supported in the literature. Unless you are under physician care for compromised kidney or liver function and are on a protein restricted diet, I just don't see 2g/kg of body weight protein intakes being dangerous.

[Cassidy Drake]

Me either. Now I am not saying everyone should take 500 grmas of protein a day by any means. But I fail to see anywhere where it says that 2 grams per kilo is bad for me or any of my trainees.

[SBaier]

Honestly, you won't see that, because no study has shown it. Funny thing about what you posted is that my boss is one of the guys from Vanderbilt that has done a lot of research in the area... he is now at Iowa State. If you were to ask some of the past and present researchers in protein and amino acid metabolism, sucah as Lemon, Young, Wolfe, Nissen, Flakoll, etc., you would hear them say the same thing... the liver and kidneys (in a healthy individual) have an amazing ability to deal with various protein loads. Anecdotally, a couple hundred grams of protein can be dealt with at one time. A lot of us have probably done it, think of a big steak at a Steakhouse you have been to. You are probably getting over 100g right there not to mention other protein in the meal. Now, like I said before, I wouldn't go around eating 100-200g of protein 3 or 4 times a day for a long period of time (it isn't practical or needed), but some cultures do. Look at the inuit indians and whale consumption, during some periods of the year, the entire group would consume nothing but protein and fat for all of their energy needs and yet the body was able to adapt to these intakes.

[D.Norris]

The argument isnt that your body will only use what it needs the argument is that the 33 grams only BS!

[Cassidy Drake]

Regardless... it is common practice to restrict protein in people with kidney problems. Looks like Cassidy has been a busy man today. That's good. Keeps your mind sharp.
And even at 2 grams per kilo a 300 pounder will consume 270 grams of protein devided by however many meals. But the body will use what it needs and excrete the rest.
Regardless of what? You tried blaming the troops problems on high protein consumtion. I prooved that there is nothing to back that up, NOTHING. Sure if someone has kidney problems then restrict it, you didn't take that stance from the beginning. The body uses what it needs and stores what it doesn't need as fat whether it be carbs, fat, protein whatever. Ecretion is very miniscule in the overall picture here.

[Paul Neuhaus]

I've found myself with quite a surplus of quality protein for once in my life and am no longer resigned to gag on the GNC stuff. I've started taking two protein shakes a day, an extra 72g over what I normally consume in a day, as well as eating four cans of tuna which adds up to another 130g of protein. I really like tuna so 4 cans a day isn't hard, and at only $.50 a can it's a good quality source of protein.

I know there's some formula for figuring out how much protein is enough and I thought it was like 1 or 2 grams of protein per pound of bodyweight. I'm 325-330 right now so if I'm supposed to ingest 660g each day then I may need some more internal organs to process that stuff.

Do your guys' protein intake vary from workout day to non-workout day? I presume you'd take a lot more protein before and after a workout (and carbs after a workout) to really help out.
Poor Clay....All he did was ask a simple question.
Look Clay...you've got TONS of info to sort through now!


Hey Cassidy, Hope to meet you at a contest some time. Maybe I could shake the dust off my old sparring gear for a work-out. I have a wrestling and Shorie Riu background, but it's been a while.

[Patrick McGuffin]

WOW............ now this was one of those threads i should have skipped over :BB:

[Cassidy Drake]

Poor Clay....All he did was ask a simple question.
Look Clay...you've got TONS of info to sort through now!


Hey Cassidy, Hope to meet you at a contest some time. Maybe I could shake the dust off my old sparring gear for a work-out. I have a wrestling and Shorie Riu background, but it's been a while.
Sounds good Paul. I will be starting strongman events next summer. I already have some good sponsors, so hopefully I can compete a lot. Wrestling is great. My traditional background in arts is Shotokan, and kajukenbo. I look forward to meeting you. We would be in the ame weight class.

[Cassidy Drake]

WOW............ now this was one of those threads i should have skipped over :BB:
Sorry for all the BS buddy. If you can skip past it all, Shwan made good points along with others, and the references I gave are good ones.

[Jay O'Neill]

This has obviously gotten out of hand...
The number I use is a number I know because I have heard it and been tested on it. I know it from the classes I have taken. It has stuck out in my mind. I haven't had the time to research it because i am busy at work. The one referance I used wasn't "good enough". As Eric states... and eloquently... It is easy to call BS and say people are full of it.. but when you do, the burden of proof befalls you.
The question is how many protein grams can the body absorb and digest and utilize at one time. I could spend the next hour researching, but to honest I want to workout.. spend time with the family and eat protein... Spaghetti as a matter of fact. If I come across the number in the naxt day or two with a referance... I will post it. And Again remember that these posts are here to help each other... no one I know is gonna post B.S. to trip someone up. I have a good rep on this board and have always helped guys when they were hurt. I'm not out to mess someone up by telling them the wrong amout of protein digestion. If you don't believe something on this board, ignor it and move along. If it works for you then do it.. if not.... do your own thing...
We all just want to get stronger... that's what this board is all about.

[Eric Johnson]

Agreed, my nutrition guide is if I am hungy then I eat and I never weigh it or try top figure out what the nutrients breakdown is.

[Sean Crabbe]

wow, i missed quite a bit. i'm just happy to eat. as long as i have a variety in my daily diet, i'm okay. equally as important, i don't like to have long breaks in between meals--i just like to keep myself away from feeling hungry. :)

[SBaier]

Sorry Eric, I accidently deleted your legit post about how much protein can be digested/absorbed or assimilated. The reason a number is hard to find in the literature is that in a healthy adult, the upper limit isn't known. As I mentioned, the liver (as well as the kidneys) can deal with very large fluctuations in protein or nitrogen metabolism demands. As for digestion and absorption, the gut is not the limiting factor. Sure you could reach the limits of what will be absorbed in the gut transient time, but again, the upper limit isn't known. The lack of research isn't surprising, at what point does it matter how much protein we can digest, absorb or metabolize (unless you are talking about those with compromised kidney or liver function)? There have been feeding studies that have gone well over 100 grams. Sure there is a limit of what amino acids are needed for protein synthesis (and thus balance), but there really isn't a negative effect on a healthy adult. Actually, there is a thermic effect of eating (digestion of nutrients requires energy) and protein has a greater thermic effect than fats or carbohydrates. Lastly, the excess protein that is taken in beyond what is used for protein kinetics, is simply broken down to its carbon structure (and used as energy-used or stored) while the nitrogen is removed. So what is this magic number that is needed to maintain protein balance, it depends on a lot of factors. However, the simple solution is to follow the basic guideline for athletes (healthy adult - quoted in numerous texts and protein studies) at approximately 1.5 - 2 grams per Kg of body weight, and feel confident that in the long run you are taking in an adequate amount of protein. Some in this area of study feel that you could probably get away with 1 gram per Kg of body weight (or even less) and as long as you eat enough total calories and the essential amino acids are met, you should be covered; but I prefer to error on the safe side and take in a little more.

[SBaier]

Jay and Cassidy... yes I did delete a lot of your posts, but again they were not contributing to the discussion any longer and were only taking things to an ugly level... this is your last warning PLAY NICE!!!! :mad: ;)

For those that read the posts, sorry I wasn't here to clean them up sooner!

[Cassidy Drake]

Sorry :BB:

[Matt Parkes]

You know I thought I'd give myself a quick catchup on the days events before going to bed....

Well I guess I might as well just stay up now work starts in a couple of hours.

PS nice debate guys!!!

[Eric Johnson]

Sorry Eric, I accidently deleted your legit post about how much protein can be digested/absorbed or assimilated. The reason a number is hard to find in the literature is that in a healthy adult, the upper limit isn't known. As I mentioned, the liver (as well as the kidneys) can deal with very large fluctuations in protein or nitrogen metabolism demands. As for digestion and absorption, the gut is not the limiting factor. Sure you could reach the limits of what will be absorbed in the gut transient time, but again, the upper limit isn't known. The lack of research isn't surprising, at what point does it matter how much protein we can digest, absorb or metabolize (unless you are talking about those with compromised kidney or liver function)? There have been feeding studies that have gone well over 100 grams. Sure there is a limit of what amino acids are needed for protein synthesis (and thus balance), but there really isn't a negative effect on a healthy adult. Actually, there is a thermic effect of eating (digestion of nutrients requires energy) and protein has a greater thermic effect than fats or carbohydrates. Lastly, the excess protein that is taken in beyond what is used for protein kinetics, is simply broken down to its carbon structure (and used as energy-used or stored) while the nitrogen is removed. So what is this magic number that is needed to maintain protein balance, it depends on a lot of factors. However, the simple solution is to follow the basic guideline for athletes (healthy adult - quoted in numerous texts and protein studies) at approximately 1.5 - 2 grams per Kg of body weight, and feel confident that in the long run you are taking in an adequate amount of protein. Some in this area of study feel that you could probably get away with 1 gram per Kg of body weight (or even less) and as long as you eat enough total calories and the essential amino acids are met, you should be covered; but I prefer to error on the safe side and take in a little more.

Sure you "Accidently" deleted it, I see how you are.:T:

Thanks for the answer, which was kind of my point in asking the question. We can argue all day and night but the fact is that everybody is different and their really is no "Scientific" proof one way or the othre. Just a bunch of studies that raise more questions, and I am not a fan of studies cuz they usually prove nothing.

[Jacob Sauter]

That's great! My response was more geared for Jacob, but either way. It was just a point that is prooven in every college level nutrition class.

Trust me, I know what I am doing :) When my protein levels are that high, so are my carbs. Im usually on a 40/40/20 macro split.

[Jacob Sauter]

Wow, what a thread..(just read it). First off, I see all these studies cited/posted from the late 80's to late 90's. Scientific knowledge proves itself wrong time and time again, thats one of the great things about it. It constantly improves upon itself, and we learn more and more every day. The fact is, no one knows how much protein each individual can absorb at one time. To say that Ron Coleman(the person with arguably the most LBM on the planet) doesnt need more protein than myself is bullsh*t. It just doesnt add up, not to mention some of the things he uses helps increase protein synthesis.

Sbaier, I dont think you should be deleting posts.. I mean this is an open forum isnt it? Im sure if someone was given a warning, they would comply, I mean we are all adults here. Not to mention some informative things could end up getting deleted(and they did). I would just hate to see this place turn into a t-mag type forum.(all my opinion ofcourse, and hopefully it doesnt get deleted.. :) )

[Cassidy Drake]

Some of the posts he deleted were from me. And honestly I am glad he did, I was acting like an ass. So I mean he did the right thing in my eyes.

[SBaier]

Jacob - Of course I'm not goint to delete your post! Other than Eric's post where he asked a question, there was nothing constructive deleted (I didn't delete anything that contributed to the discussion on protein supplementation). I'm sorry you feel this way, but Jesse has set up rules on this board. If people don't follow the rules or a thread turns ugly, it or specific posts will be deleted. I am not a fan of removing someone's post, but you will have to trust that when something is deleted the moderators are only doing what is good for the board. I really do appreciate your concerns.

Cassidy - don't worry about it. You and Jay are great members here, and from reading the posts in Jay's journal, it looks like Jay is trying to help you with the headaches.

[Jay O'Neill]

I'd have to concur with Cassidy... yes I agree with him... I got out of hand as well and was acting like an Ass. I appreciate the fact that Shawn deleted the post's. This board is one of the best run board's there is. I am glad that I can read a post with the kids looking over my shoulder and not have to worry.

[Dan Harrison]

I can't believe a thread about protein shakes went on for 9 pages.

I drink a big shake with 2 to 3 scoops (80-100grams of protein per shake) 2, 3, and sometimes 4 times a day. Seems to help...the more the better, but if i have more than 4 a day, i turn a lean green farting machine.

[Cassidy Drake]

What's your height and weight Dan?

[Dan Harrison]

6'0 1/2" and 270

[Mike Yuen]

for the guy that says he loses 2lbs during sleep... :eek:

are you sure it is not water? I mean 2lbs is 7000calories burned..!

If it is not water....hahah you must wake up alot to eat..


And for the thread....I believe your body will do fine as long as you don't over do the protein in the day...and also spread out evenly through a few meals. Not to mention to drink alot of water. Eat your vegetables and fiber. Lift weights and exercise consistently.
I don't see how if you're eating healthy food it can harm you ..especially when you're exercising....and people who exercise needs more protein than an individual who doesn't do crap. Even if the body can't use any more than 33g of protein in 3hrs (which i doubt)....at the end of the day...it turns to be the amount of calories you put into your body...and if you eat more than you can burn off you still gain weight which makes the amount of protein used during a certain time pointless in my oppinion...just as long as you eat at least 30g+ protein every 1.5-3hrs and have enough of carb to fuel you through the workout..and fat calories as well...

:)

Of course...this is just coming from a kid who has only been training and studying for a little over a year.

[Cassidy Drake]

Ok, so my real life experiance with athletes and others as a trainer say that the 35 grams assimilated at a time is ubsubstantiated and nothing more than here say. Heck kidney problems can be from a number of things other than high protein diets. I spent my first 4 years in the Air Force ******* and almost all of us followed a higher protein diet, yet I have no record of anyone(over 300 troops ever having a problem, or others on deployments. But hey you must be correct since you say so.
edit for some content

[Kellen Waltman]

I take a lot a day to get in the protein.

I get ~55/45% whole food/shakes normally. About 160-180g of protein from shakes and 200-220 from whole foods.

That's about 4-5 shakes a day at multi-scoops.

[davebeers]

i make one shake in the morning and drink it slowly throughout the day. Here's what i put in it:
12 eggs
50gm whey protein
8 scoops muscle juice

It has 250gm protein and about 3000 calories in it. I'm gonna put an extra 50gms starting next week to try to gain some more weight.

[Cassidy Drake]

What is muscle juice?

[davebeers]

What is muscle juice?
weight gainer from Ultimate Nutrition.
Its only $25 for 10lbs of it on supplementdirect.com
Cheapest and best tasting weight gainer i've ever tried.

[Eric Johnson]

weight gainer from Ultimate Nutrition.
Its only $25 for 10lbs of it on supplementdirect.com
Cheapest and best tasting weight gainer i've ever tried.

I agree 100%, I use it for breakfast and as a snack when I am hungry. I get it at www.allsportsnutrition.com (http://www.allsportsnutrition.com) for $20