Double-Amputee Runner to Compete for Olympic Spot

[James Whisman]

Wanted to open this up to some discussion.

http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,356290,00.html
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=moIkCxXrobk&feature=related

I can see both sides to this one. He is a very gifted athlete and it is awesome seeing all he has accomplished and overcome, but runs on spring loaded stilts. What do you guys think?

[Matthew White]

I think its worth a try, but if this guy turns around and stomps everyone, how many professional sprinters are going to chop themselves off at the legs and show up to their next race with spring loaded stilts with rocket packs on them!

[Matt Schumann]

I can see where both sides are comng from. I for one thinks its great for a person with this disability to go for the olympics, but i can definitly see where there is the unfair advantage...

interested to see what everyone thinks.

[Brandon Campbell]

the springs really dont add more to a runner then most think, they are just more there for shock absorption. And they are designed with the body weight of the runner to work most effectively, so its not like he can go and add heavier springs cause they wont work right

[James Fernandes]

let him run, naturally talented sprinter, he deserves the chance to compete with the best there are, if anything he is disadvantages due to not having limbs and using springs.

[Paul_Koskinen]

The Olympic Commitee has enough rules and regulations to build a bridge to China.
No, he won't be allowed to compete in the olympics but it's a great step forward for those who can't participate due to disability.

[Ryan Rhodes]

How much longer do they make his stride? How much lighter are they than the below-the-knee part of an average sprinter's leg? How many less muscles and how much less caloric energy does he use? How many less mechanical movements does his body have to make? He only started training ~2 years ago and he's already at an Olympic level? How many people in any sport have you heard of doing that with their own legs still on? Etc, etc. There are way to many variables here.

I'm all for equal opportunity, but most of of this guy's legs are performance prosthetics and that makes his running ability technology based. IMO, that's not natural. If the committee is going to be vigilent on limiting what kinds of technologically superior shoes, swimsuits and substances the other athletes can use, they need to be the same way with this guy and his gear. If that means he can't compete, so be it.

[Nick Davis]

I think it's awesome...you know it's his dream to compete at an olympic level and to be treated as an equal...give him a shot and see what happens..he has to qualify just like everyone else. (Except for relay team from what i see on espn)

[Justin Wood]

I watched the special on this. And he has had to learn to adapt to his "legs" in order to train, get faster, etc. If another person puts on these prosthetics they do not automatically gain Olympic qualifying speed. Should they disqualify someone who has longer legs and therefore a longer stride that gives them an advantage? I think if he is one of the top runners in the world, let him compete. With the level of competition expected at the upcoming Olympics, he would have to run world record times to win. Just my opinion.

[Daniel Dase]

Wouldn't he have to complete in the Paralympic Games? I mean.. isn't that the whole point of having those games?

[Jay Hagadorn]

Looks like he won his appeal:

http://sports.yahoo.com/olympics/news?slug=ap-run-cas-pistorius&prov=ap&type=lgns


Guys, I do not know how many of you have spent time around amputees, but just the fact that he can jog in those prostetics is an accomplishment, let alone sprint, or for that matter qualify!!!

[James Whisman]

I mowed the grass tonight, when I do my thinking and I concluded that I don't think he should be allowed to run. This is how I got there: I begn thinking about strongman and the new robotic prosthetic hands. Hypothetically say a pro strongman lost his hands in a car wreck. He was outfitted with new robotic hands that had the grip strength of his flesh and bone hands (no advantage there) but did not fatigue. Instead of grip strength being the limiting factor his shoulders/low back determine his time/distance ect. Not a perfect analogy but close.

[Jay Hagadorn]

I mowed the grass tonight, when I do my thinking and I concluded that I don't think he should be allowed to run. This is how I got there: I begn thinking about strongman and the new robotic prosthetic hands. Hypothetically say a pro strongman lost his hands in a car wreck. He was outfitted with new robotic hands that had the grip strength of his flesh and bone hands (no advantage there) but did not fatigue. Instead of grip strength being the limiting factor his shoulders/low back determine his time/distance ect. Not a perfect analogy but close.

But James, there is no "robotic" anything on his prostetics. The study that they had MTI do on his prostetics showed that there was no mechanical advantage between the prostetics and a regular leg...

[James Whisman]

But James, there is no "robotic" anything on his prostetics. The study that they had MTI do on his prostetics showed that there was no mechanical advantage between the prostetics and a regular leg...

Like I said not a perfect analogy and while there may be no mechanical advantage, there is a fatigue advantage and a weight advantage.

[Mike Gill]

But James, there is no "robotic" anything on his prostetics. The study that they had MTI do on his prostetics showed that there was no mechanical advantage between the prostetics and a regular leg...
You have to look at it as a fatigue factor. The prosthetics take the place of calves. They can't fatigue. When you sprint the first thing to fatigue is your calves. You may not notice it, but it happens. This mechanical advantage for him is huge. While some things that are indirect performance enhancers are banned direct performance enhancers are not(IE lasik eye surgery, pain killers, caffeine). Even though he has a technical disability these give him a direct advantage.

[Sean Tennant]

I say congratulations to him, let's see what he can do!

[Barney Shannon]

Good for him. However, I heard that he still has to cut over 1 sec off his 400 time to earn a spot on the team. I don't know if that is possible by the Olympic trials.

[Jay Hagadorn]

You have to look at it as a fatigue factor. The prosthetics take the place of calves. They can't fatigue. When you sprint the first thing to fatigue is your calves. You may not notice it, but it happens. This mechanical advantage for him is huge. While some things that are indirect performance enhancers are banned direct performance enhancers are not(IE lasik eye surgery, pain killers, caffeine). Even though he has a technical disability these give him a direct advantage.

This is from the article link:

The IAAF based its January decision on studies by German professor Gert-Peter Brueggemann, who said the J-shaped “Cheetah” blades were energy efficient

Pistorius’ lawyers countered with independent tests conducted by a team led by MIT professor Hugh M. Herr that claimed to show he doesn’t gain any advantage over able-bodied runners.

CAS said the IAAF failed to prove Pistorius’ running blades gave him an advantage.

“If I had to look at the situation, how many amputee athletes use the exact same prosthetic leg as I do and don’t run nearly close to the same times?” Pistorius said. “I think running has become my purpose in life. It has become my calling in life.”

[Hamish Moir]

I'm no expert but you'd imagine that since the human leg has evolved over many hundreds of thousands of years that it's an optimally efficient piece of apparatus. Anything artificial is not going to be as good. Although the engineers that designed these prosthetics have done a fantastic job, I would think that there is a net disadvantage using them over real lower legs.

[Kevin Cronin]

I am shocked by the number of people who say he shouldn't be allowed to compete. Any of his competitors who think it's an advantage are perfectly welcome, as far as I'm concerned, to get their legs amputated and outfit themselves with these prosthetics.

I doubt we'll see a line forming anytime soon.

[Barney Shannon]

IMO, the guy should be given the chance to earn a spot even though his artificial legs might give him an advantage. There was a guy with no legs that wrestled on Team NJ with my son. Having no legs put him in a much lower weight class then he would normally be in and he had no problem staying low. He would take down guys at will with the ankle pick. Also, Matt Anderson was still allowed to wrestle and win the NJ States at 103 pounds as a 6' tall sophmore. He could actually put a guy in a cradle from the standing position. Now that's freaky. :)

[James Whisman]

Wrestlers without legs aren't allowed to use artificial limbs. I believe anyone should be allowed to do anything, but no specials allotments should be made for anyone. As technology progresses artifical limbs will continue to improve. This sets a bad president for the future. Look at the clothes worn by athletes. In the 1930s swimmers swam in cotton. That had to be like dragging a lead anchor. Now they swim in skin tight high tech materials that eliminate drag.

To flip this around, if he is good enough to compete in the Olympics, should he be allowed to compete in the Paralimpics?

[Kevin Cronin]

Wrestlers without legs aren't allowed to use artificial limbs. I believe anyone should be allowed to do anything, but no specials allotments should be made for anyone. As technology progresses artifical limbs will continue to improve. This sets a bad president for the future. Look at the clothes worn by athletes. In the 1930s swimmers swam in cotton. That had to be like dragging a lead anchor. Now they swim in skin tight high tech materials that eliminate drag.

To flip this around, if he is good enough to compete in the Olympics, should he be allowed to compete in the Paralimpics?
So what's the solution - make them all swim in cotton? It would be holding back progress, limiting everyone because of the misfortunes and shortcomings of the past. That strikes me as pure silliness.

And yes, even if he qualifies for the olympics I believe he should be allowed to compete in the paralimpics.

[James Whisman]

So what's the solution - make them all swim in cotton? It would be holding back progress, limiting everyone because of the misfortunes and shortcomings of the past. That strikes me as pure silliness.

And yes, even if he qualifies for the olympics I believe he should be allowed to compete in the paralimpics.

The cotton was an example of technology progression...like will happen with the artificial leg. If artificial legs are let in now in 50 years how far will they progress in terms of energy transferance, lighter material ect.

[Hamish Moir]

The cotton was an example of technology progression...like will happen with the artificial leg. If artificial legs are let in now in 50 years how far will they progress in terms of energy transferance, lighter material ect.

Once artificial limbs start producing energy then they might reasonably be seen as an unfair advantage. Until then, the loss of energy production through an amputated lower limb is always going to be a disadvantage no matter what miracle materials are use in a prosthesis.

[Kevin Cronin]

The cotton was an example of technology progression...like will happen with the artificial leg. If artificial legs are let in now in 50 years how far will they progress in terms of energy transferance, lighter material ect.
Exactly, things progress and that's fine. Nobody would advocate going back to the cotton swimwear, that's crazy. So swimmers benefit from better swimwear, double amputees benefit from better prosthetics, sounds good to me.

[Jonathan Macfarlane]

If the powers that be decide he can run, he can run. I doubt they would allow him to compete if he was given an advantage.

Either way, he's not running nearly fast enough to even make the semi-finals in the 400m. Should he become a medal contender one day, then I would guarantee the debate would be different.

[Kevin Cronin]

http://sports.espn.go.com/espn/wire?section=swimming&id=3399454

I read about this suit a few months ago in SI. Just thought it dovetailed interestingly with this topic of discussion

[WesleyInman]

You have to look at it as a fatigue factor. The prosthetics take the place of calves. They can't fatigue. When you sprint the first thing to fatigue is your calves. You may not notice it, but it happens. This mechanical advantage for him is huge. While some things that are indirect performance enhancers are banned direct performance enhancers are not(IE lasik eye surgery, pain killers, caffeine). Even though he has a technical disability these give him a direct advantage.

I agree..I read up on this myself, and I personally was a sprinter in college, and the fatigue is the largest factor in a close race in a 100-200M sprint. A scientist developed his spring loaded legs to be specifically efficient based on length of the race and distance of strides, so basically a mathematically formulated stride.

Although I agree that this guy is amazing for doing what he does, if you put a rocket pack on someone with no arms or legs, they are going to win hands down, that's not a true race IMO...For strongman a similar analogy would be like giving an athlete with no arms, hydraulic arms and them benching 1000lbs, and putting them in the Olympics.

I did think this was very inspirational to other handicap athletes, theres no limit to what you can do nowadays!

[Mike Zylinski]

Any of his competitors who think it's an advantage are perfectly welcome, as far as I'm concerned, to get their legs amputated and outfit themselves with these prosthetics.



I'm pretty sure anyone who says he has an advantage means in the specific confines of a sprint, not life in general. No one is denying this guy has overcome huge obstacles and is pretty inspirational, but competitors have a right to question the effects of highly specialized prosthetics.

[Kevin Cronin]

I'm pretty sure anyone who says he has an advantage means in the specific confines of a sprint, not life in general. No one is denying this guy has overcome huge obstacles and is pretty inspirational, but competitors have a right to question the effects of highly specialized prosthetics.
I understand that, but I still think there is something tremendously disingenuous about elite level athletes, who are among the most blessed of the blessed in terms of natural ability, complaining about another's disadvantage that he has turned into a strength. I feel like saying to them (and this is a nonspecific them, since the resistance seems to be coming mostly from governing bodies, but i guarantee you'll hear bitching the first time a guy with a prosthesis wins a race) "You really care that much about winning races? You're really that dedicated? Do it. Cut off your own legs, I dare you."

[James Whisman]

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[Brian_Worden]

Until then, the loss of energy production through an amputated lower limb is always going to be a disadvantage no matter what miracle materials are use in a prosthesis.


I wouldn't say that. Leg muscles and artificial limbs are both machines which transform potential energy to kinetic energy.

Muscles consuming calories.
Springs compressed by weight.

We lose a lot of energy to heat. If you had highly efficient springs... I absolutely think you could gain an advantage here. Especially if the athlete fooled around with spring rates and so on .

Now... I am not saying that he is lucky to have this advantage. His struggle must have been awful and I think this is amazing that a double amputee could be considered for the olympics. BUT... as some one said... if someone's lower body were replaced by hydraulic actuators... they probably would be able to win a squat competition.

[Hamish Moir]

The spring has to rely on energy from other muscles in the body to work. It is not as efficient as a limb that moves through it's own muscle contactions.

[AndrewPalmer]

I understand that, but I still think there is something tremendously disingenuous about elite level athletes, who are among the most blessed of the blessed in terms of natural ability, complaining about another's disadvantage that he has turned into a strength. I feel like saying to them (and this is a nonspecific them, since the resistance seems to be coming mostly from governing bodies, but i guarantee you'll hear bitching the first time a guy with a prosthesis wins a race) "You really care that much about winning races? You're really that dedicated? Do it. Cut off your own legs, I dare you."



This whole topic is a bit like saying that a motorcyle will NEVER outrun a horse, back when the first one was made in 1885 or so.

Yes, it may or may not be faster than the natural thing now. But wait 5 or ten, maybe 20 years and the artifical design will absolutely destroy the natural.

Now, don't get me wrong, I am 100% behind some sort of an "Engineering games" where bio-mechanical athletes compete and there are essentially no rules; but considering that primitive hormones are banned I don't think that the Olympics are going to be the science games anytime soon.

And yes, compared to mechanical body-modifications, hormone therapies are primitive.

Also, this may not seem like a big deal now, but wait ten years when more advanced prosthetic limbs are being built with all the functionality and tactile feedback of the originals, but are multiple times stronger or faster. People won't be cutting off there own legs. They'll be having it done for them, in hospitals, and they will be replaced by artificial limbs, under strict medical supervision funded by the world's governments so that their country has the best athletes.

Moral of my story. Waait until the first long standing world record is broken by someone with artificial limbs and see what happens.