Do you have to have a licencing permit to play music in the gym?

[Jay Hagadorn]

No, this is a serious question. Is it a "law" now that you have to have a licence to play music in public that has a copy right on it?

For instance; You buy a cd at the store and want to play it at the gym during an aerobics class, or just in the open air? Anyone know?

I have been getting calls from a place called BMI. Most of the music I play is from the radio stations. They say you have to purchase the licence to play music in public. I got in a little heated discussion w/ one of the guys @ BMI this morning over it. Any one have any answers?

[Eric Jett]

Punch them in the face. Punching them in the face proves you're right.

[Brandon Smith]

http://www.bmi.com/licensing/entry/C1282

Jay, here's some info on BMI and their licensing. I'm not sure what kind of legal actions they can persue if you don't choose to license through them. Really odd though how they contacted you. Hopefully someone can help some more. But good luck with it!

[JoeCSnavely]

I believe that there is some validity to this from a syndication perspective. We tried to set up a satellite radio station to play at our family business about a year ago. That idea was shut down for a similar reason because it went beyond private use. However, this was satellite radio.

I would find this hard to accept for CD's or public radio for that matter without the actual statute or letter of law. This would have a wide range of implications if it were true. I would ask them to substantiate this in writing.



No, this is a serious question. Is it a "law" now that you have to have a licence to play music in public that has a copy right on it?

For instance; You buy a cd at the store and want to play it at the gym during an aerobics class, or just in the open air? Anyone know?

I have been getting calls from a place called BMI. Most of the music I play is from the radio stations. They say you have to purchase the licence to play music in public. I got in a little heated discussion w/ one of the guys @ BMI this morning over it. Any one have any answers?

[Rob Haan]

Alywn Cosgrove commented on this not too long ago on his blog- he said you could play the radio but you have to have the license to play CD's.
I also got some advertising from a company that wanted me to buy CD's that could be played in the gym

Rob

[JoeCSnavely]

http://www.bmi.com/licensing/entry/C1282

Jay, here's some info on BMI and their licensing. I'm not sure what kind of legal actions they can persue if you don't choose to license through them. Really odd though how they contacted you. Hopefully someone can help some more. But good luck with it!


Interesting. They tax and charge you for anything nowadays. Revert back to Eric's advice!!!

[Jeff Flynn]

Now perhaps (and just hypothetically speaking here) what if members played "their own" cds on a publicly availible radio? Not sanctioned or approved of by the gym? Perhaps some members would like to do that at your gym?

[Kevin Cronin]

Now perhaps (and just hypothetically speaking here) what if members played "their own" cds on a publicly availible radio? Not sanctioned or approved of by the gym? Perhaps some members would like to do that at your gym?
Beat me to it. Jay, I have ZERO legal experience but I would imagine that you'd be able to provide a stereo system, just not the music. After all, if the members do bring their own music, they're still not making a profit off of it (which is what I believe you need the license for) so there's no difference between playing your CD on the gyms stereo system with other members listening vs playing you cd on your stereo system in a public park (assuming the park example doesnt violate noise ordinances) with passers-by able to hear it

[Mark A Cummings]

I was thinking the same thing. I thought for it to be copyright infringement you had to be making money off of it. People are paying to come to the gym to lift (or pansies are coming to do the cable curl machine and flex in the mirror). Either way, people aren't coming because you have the latest Britney Spears album blasting through your deadlift platform area! I don't see how its an issue if its playing as background.

[Ryan Bracewell]

Jay, if you are really worried about it I can shoot my buddy(he's a lawyer) an email asking him about this. He may be able to shed some light but it will take a day or so.

I've worked in several gyms and to the best of my knowledge known of them paid licencing fees for music. I could see what he is saying about playing CD's, but I would think you could play radio or Satellite radio. Since the broadcasting company for the radio stations have already paid the music label, then why would you have to pay them too. Kind of like taxing the same item twice.

[Ryan Nielson]

It is true. My dad owned Taco John's restaurant in Twin falls and we listened to the radio down low enough that the customers could barely even hear it eventually the BMI guys came in and wanted money cause we listened to the radio. What my dad decided to do was just get rid of the radio rather than pay them. Of course you probably don't want to do that in your gym though.

[Ryan Rhodes]

So any joint w/ a jukebox, Muzak or radio is breaking the law? And what about DJs and dance clubs who actually directly use the music to make money? Like their paying licensing fees? Nah, don't think so. Sounds like somebody is fishing for for $ and suckering some uninformed people into biting. I call bullshot on this one.

[Steve Trippe]

At the gym I used to work at we had to pay by the song for CD's. We got Satellite eventually, found out that wasn't going to work, and now we use pandora.com because you can customize the music you want to play, and since it's through a site that already pays licensing fee's (in turn for advertising) we are pretty sure it's kinda maybe legal.

[Ryan Wells]

This does sound a bit like a scam. However, I wouldn't be surprised if they are starting to crack down during tough times. Hell, I noticed that they are using a little less oil in the Smuckers All Natural Peanutbutter. After you mix it and refrigerate it, it is like dried spackle now. Times are tough and places are trying to dig deep for lost revenue. Just look at what the airlines are doing.

BMI is one of the big publishing companies. The other one (the biggest I think) is ASCAP. Their job is to collect royalties for the record companies. This is to include mechanical royalties, performance rights, and synchronization rights. Instead of a radio station paying a percentage every time they play a song, they pay what is called a "blanket licensing fee". I've read that back in the 50's and 60's ASCAP used to send auditors out in vans to various locations and tune in to listen how many times they rotated a song in a given time. They would base their blanket license fee of off this. Now, they can do it electronically.

How do I know this? I had to cover the music business for a project in one of my business classes a while back.

The power of the publishing companies are based on what is in the copyright laws. I do think, if I remember correctly, that there is something in there about reproduction of any type for public consumption.

I do think this is a phone scammer, but then again, it wouldn't surprise me these days. Although, I do find it hard to believe that a guy from BMI is going through the phone book calling gyms. Unless, maybe there was a complaint or they seen your Youtube videos or something--hard to say.

Next time, I would get the guy's name, title, and department, and phone number and tell him that you will have to call him right back. Then, call the operator at BMI and try to relocate that guy.

Don't sweat it man.

[Ryan Brown]

believe it or not the copyright laws do require a license in many situations when music is being played in a public place. Many people do not know about this. There are exceptions. In this particular case I think it will depend on how big (square feet) your gym is and how many speakers you are using.

"Now the Music Licensing Act8 draws the line between private and public in terms of the type of public establishment, the size, and the stereo equipment used. Restaurants and bars under 3,750 square feet or retail establishments under 2,000 square feet are exempt from paying fees for playing radio or TV broadcasts for their customers. Public places of any size that play radio or TV broadcasts are exempt from paying fees if they use no more than six external speakers (not more than four speakers in each room) for playing music. Public places that play CDs or hire live musicians (that play cover songs or copy songs) are still subject to being licensed for fees.

You can lose the private home exemption and be subject to a license if you charge anyone admission fees to listen to music.9"

http://publishing.wsu.edu/copyright/music.html

[Matt Brouse]

In my industry BMI is garbage. This BMI doesn't seem to be too terribly different.

Play Hatebreed...they rock. Otherwise, I'm with Jett.



Also, very interesting replies. Nice.

[Ryan Wells]

believe it or not the copyright laws do require a license in many situations when music is being played in a public place. Many people do not know about this. There are exceptions. In this particular case I think it will depend on how big (square feet) your gym is and how many speakers you are using.

"Now the Music Licensing Act8 draws the line between private and public in terms of the type of public establishment, the size, and the stereo equipment used. Restaurants and bars under 3,750 square feet or retail establishments under 2,000 square feet are exempt from paying fees for playing radio or TV broadcasts for their customers. Public places of any size that play radio or TV broadcasts are exempt from paying fees if they use no more than six external speakers (not more than four speakers in each room) for playing music. Public places that play CDs or hire live musicians (that play cover songs or copy songs) are still subject to being licensed for fees.

You can lose the private home exemption and be subject to a license if you charge anyone admission fees to listen to music.9"

http://publishing.wsu.edu/copyright/music.html
Wow, that is impressive. Good work. Soooo... maybe the publishing companies ARE starting to dig deep.

[Rex Douglas]

No, this is a serious question. Is it a "law" now that you have to have a licence to play music in public that has a copy right on it?

For instance; You buy a cd at the store and want to play it at the gym during an aerobics class, or just in the open air? Anyone know?

I have been getting calls from a place called BMI. Most of the music I play is from the radio stations. They say you have to purchase the licence to play music in public. I got in a little heated discussion w/ one of the guys @ BMI this morning over it. Any one have any answers?


There is literally nothing they can do to you. Your business is too small and you do not profit from the playing of the music. You do not need a license to play the radio in your private gym.

If they call you back tell them you do not wish to speak them anymore. Then tell them you consider any further attempts on their part at contacting as harresement and make it clear that they are to no longer call you or attempt to contact you at your business, place of residence or anywhere in your community. Tell them they and or any agents on their behalf are not welcome on any of your properties and that you will consider their presence as trespassing and will call the police.

Then simply hang up the telephone.

that should end it. I doubt they'll want to pony up the dough to try and get a court order to come and monitor the music you play. if they bother you again I know a lawyer who would probably write a letter for you for free outlining what I stated above.

Right now they are simply trying to bully you in hopes you'll roll over and take their empty threats.

[Ryan Wells]

There is literally nothing they can do to you.

If they call you back tell them you do not wish to speak them anymore. Then tell them you consider any further attempts on their part at contacting as harresement and make it clear that they are to no longer call you or attempt to contact you at your business, place of residence or anywhere in your community. Tell them they are not welcome on any of your properties and will consider their presence as trespassing.

Then simply hang up the telephone.

that should end it. I doubt they'll want to pony up the dough to try and get a court order to come and monitor the music you play.

Right now they are simply trying to bully you in hopes you'll roll over and take their empty threats.
I agree.

Usually things like this comes in written form like, a cease and desist letter or intent of legal action.

[Eric Johnson]

I am no lawyer, but Jay isn't your Gym private? As in you have to be a paying member to be there and not anyone off the street is welcome? This is different than a bar or restaurant. As long as you don't use the music you play to entice gaining membership or otherwise directly or indirectly profit from it I think they would have a hard time proving it in court, and ultimately cost them more in court than they would get out of you. That is the strategy I used when dealing with DickTV....er I mean DirecTV.

[Ryan Rhodes]

This covers it. If you satisfy the speaker limitations you should qualify as exempt.

From ASCAP:

"8. I'm interested in playing music in my restaurant or other business. I know that I need permission for live performances. Do I need permission if I am using only CD's, records, tapes, radio or TV?

Yes, you will need permission to play records or tapes in your establishment. Permission for radio and television transmissions in your business is not needed if the performance is by means of public communication of TV or radio transmissions by eating, drinking, retail or certain other establishments of a certain size which use a limited number of speakers or TVs, and if the reception is not further transmitted (for example, from one room to another) from the place in which it is received, and there is no admission charge. Your local ASCAP licensing manager can discuss your needs and advise how ASCAP can help you.

15. What are the exemptions for the reception of radio and television performances in eating and drinking establishments and retail establishments?

An amendment to the Copyright Act, designed to clarify and expand the scope of the exemption for certain performances of music in food service, drinking and retail establishments by means of radio and television transmissions, became effective on January 26, 1999. (Public Law No. 105-298, which amended 17 U.S.C. 110(5).)

The amendment law applies only to performances by means of radio-over-speakers or televisions, only if no direct charge is made to see or hear the performances, only if the performances are not further transmitted beyond the establishment where they are received, and only if the original transmission is licensed by the copyright owners -- that is, the radio or television station, cable system or satellite carrier is licensed by the copyright owners or their performing rights organizations.

The scope of the exemption in the old law had been unclear, and led to much litigation. The new law contains objective standards which will enable both music users and copyright owners to determine whether particular radio-over-speaker and television performances are exempt from copyright liability. Two types of music users are exempt, under different standards: a food service or drinking establishment(defined as "a restaurant, inn, bar, tavern, or any other similar place of business in which the public or patrons assemble for the primary purpose of being served food or drink, in which the majority of the gross square feet of space that is nonresidential is used for that purpose, and in which nondramatic musical works are performed publicly") and an other establishment (defined as "a store, shop, or any similar place of business open to the general public for the primary purpose of selling goods or services in which the majority of the gross square feet of space that is nonresidential is used for that purpose, and in which nondramatic musical works are performed publicly").

A food service or drinking establishment is eligible for the exemption if it (1) has less than 3750 gross square feet of space (in measuring the space, the amount of space used for customer parking only is always excludable); or (2) has 3750 gross square feet of space or more and (a) uses no more than 6 loudspeakers of which not more than 4 loudspeakers are located in any 1 room or adjoining outdoor space; and (b) if television sets are used, there are no more than 4 televisions, of which not more than 1 is located in any 1 room and none has a diagonal screen size greater than 55 inches.

An other establishment is eligible for the exemption if it (1) has less than 2000 gross square feet of space; or (2) has 2000 or more gross square feet of space and satisfies the same loudspeaker and television set requirements as for food service or drinking establishments.

The new law should greatly reduce disputes as to whether particular radio-over-speaker and television performances are entitled to the exemption. And, of course, the law continues to require that public performances of copyrighted music by other means such as live music, records, cassette tapes, CD’s background music services, video tapes or laser discs require permission obtained either from the copyright owners or from their performing rights licensing organizations. "

[JoeCSnavely]

This covers it. If you satisfy the speaker limitations you should qualify as exempt.

From ASCAP:

"8. I'm interested in playing music in my restaurant or other business. I know that I need permission for live performances. Do I need permission if I am using only CD's, records, tapes, radio or TV?

Yes, you will need permission to play records or tapes in your establishment. Permission for radio and television transmissions in your business is not needed if the performance is by means of public communication of TV or radio transmissions by eating, drinking, retail or certain other establishments of a certain size which use a limited number of speakers or TVs, and if the reception is not further transmitted (for example, from one room to another) from the place in which it is received, and there is no admission charge. Your local ASCAP licensing manager can discuss your needs and advise how ASCAP can help you.

[. "

That was exactly what was said when we were approached with the liscensing issue. We wanted to keep the stereo and equipment back in the office and run speakers throughout.

[anton axelsson]

jay to be honest with you man i run 2 family owned restraunts here in california.and i have never heard that u have to pay any tax on playing the radio i play live fm radio at one place and satalite at another and ive never heard that u have to pay for anything ignore them and tell them to f off. but cd's thay could try to get you for that one doubt that thay could thow...but the bigger quetion should be who rated you out to them and is trying to get you in trouble??

[Matthew White]

I'm with Jett, a punch to the face usually brings back common sense lost from reading too many law books.

[Ryan Nielson]

I think it is usually a random thing. They have guys that just go out and hit up businesses that are playing music. My dad's restaurant was in business for over 10 years before we ever got a visit from them. Later on when he had a 2nd restaurant they came in there as well. Somehow he got around having to pay the fees. I don't know exactly how he handled it. If your lucky enough to not be playing music at the time the guy walks in then you'd definately get away with it.

[Jay Hagadorn]

Thanks guys for the replies. Apparently this guy wasn't joking. You could be fined $150,000 and $30,000 per incident. What's the world coming to?

http://www.bbb.org/alerts/article.asp?ID=451

http://www.bmi.com/licensing/entry/C1299/pdf533620_1/

I can't believe it!!!

[Paul Rogers]

we are pretty sure it's kinda maybe legal.

LMAO!!!!!!

[Joshua Davis]

UMG just popped me yesterday for having a Johnny Cash song in one of my lifting videos. They applied ads to my video to generate revenue. Here's the exact notice:

"Your video is still live because UMG has authorized the use of this content on YouTube. As long as UMG has a claim on your video, they will receive public statistics about your video, such as number of views. Viewers may also see advertising on your video's page."


Ain't that a jab in the eye?

If they do that to my Jesse tribute video I will sing and play the same song and re-do the vid instead of having some jerkoffs put ads on my tribute vid.

[Jason Poulos]

they're probably blanket-calling all the gyms in the area

just don't let in any Poindexters with notepads and recorders and you'll be fine.

[Patrick McGuffin]

There is a lot of remote land to disappear in in Idaho Jay. A LOT OF LAND.

[James Whisman]

Play only NPR, they can't touch you then

[Joshua Davis]

Play only NPR, they can't touch you then

Yeah man, Prairie Home Companion gets me super jacked when I get my squats on.

[christopher smith]

No, this is a serious question. Is it a "law" now that you have to have a licence to play music in public that has a copy right on it?

For instance; You buy a cd at the store and want to play it at the gym during an aerobics class, or just in the open air? Anyone know?

I have been getting calls from a place called BMI. Most of the music I play is from the radio stations. They say you have to purchase the licence to play music in public. I got in a little heated discussion w/ one of the guys @ BMI this morning over it. Any one have any answers?
What the hell is BMI?

[Jason Dayberry]

look up fair use laws

the first link is a fun way to learn
www.youtube.com/watch?v=CJn_jC4FNDo

www.copyright.gov/fls/fl102.html

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fair_use

i just took a grad class that hammered this into our heads!!!