U.S. Athletes, pro cards, international contests, etc

[Billy Wolt]

I'm curious....

why is it that the US has a pro card system while other nations invite athletes based on contest performances?

Are US strongmen required to have pro cards in order to get to WSM, or other large events?

Did all the top US strongmen earn pro cards? would they not be were they are without it?

It seems like other sports don't have pro cards...if you're good, you get selected to join the majors...if your not good, then you don't make the pros.

[DaneGarreau]

It seems like other sports don't have pro cards...if you're good, you get selected to join the majors...if your not good, then you don't make the pros.

The difference is, in America, you have to actually PROVE that you are good, by winning a Pro/am type of contest.

If you can't beat the best amateurs in the country then you don't need to be a pro, point blank.

Other sports are also very different. It is quite hard to judge the talent of a minor league baseball player based on one game, or even ten games. In a strongman contest you pretty much will place wherever your talent allows you to.

[Scott Markowitz]

The other part is that there are a ton of strongman competitors in the US. The pro card system is something of a screening device to keep out those who just wouldn't belong from pro shows.

[Billy Wolt]

The difference is, in America, you have to actually PROVE that you are good, by winning a Pro/am type of contest.

If you can't beat the best amateurs in the country then you don't need to be a pro, point blank.

Other sports are also very different. It is quite hard to judge the talent of a minor league baseball player based on one game, or even ten games. In a strongman contest you pretty much will place wherever your talent allows you to.

this doesn't really answer my questions....are you saying that the top guys from the UK or Canada or whereever have not proved themselves?

to me, winning a pro/am and playing one baseball game are the same thing. You could have a great day, a so-so day, or a medicore day....either way, the guy with the great day is going to look good.

you still haven't sold me on the pro card system and why other nations don't use it.

[Billy Wolt]

The other part is that there are a ton of strongman competitors in the US. The pro card system is something of a screening device to keep out those who just wouldn't belong from pro shows.

wouldn't the promotors of major events be able to judge one's abilities? does a pro card mean you CAN hang?

[Matt Dawson]

Brian Siders doesnt have a strongman specific "pro card", but he has proved himself over and over again in the world of powerlifting.

[Scott Markowitz]

If you've gone through the process of winning a pro card, you've shown that you at least have the potential to hang at a pro show. In other countries with fewer competitors, it's easier to know those who might show up (sort of like a small town where everybody knows everybody).

[DaneGarreau]

If you've gone through the process of winning a pro card, you've shown that you at least have the potential to hang at a pro show. In other countries with fewer competitors, it's easier to know those who might show up (sort of like a small town where everybody knows everybody).

I agree completely.

And Billy, what I was trying to get at is that it is much harder to have a "fluke" win in strongman than it is in other sports. A good baseball team might have a .600 winning percentage for the year, checkout the winning percentages of the top strongmen, their winning percentage is above .800......thus meaning that it is much easier to judge a strongman based off of 1 contest than it is to judge players in other sports.

Even in Golf, guys like Tiger woods will have an off tournament and finish towards the lower middle of the pack......this doesn't happen with the top strongmen.

[Billy Wolt]

If you've gone through the process of winning a pro card, you've shown that you at least have the potential to hang at a pro show. In other countries with fewer competitors, it's easier to know those who might show up (sort of like a small town where everybody knows everybody).

I'm not quite sure how beating unproven amatuers means you are good enough. No disrespect to anyone meant. Just trying to understand why us athletes need a pro card while others are invited based on performances and abilities.

[Steve Mac]

Because some people make lots of money off of the pro card system. And just having a pro card and doing well as a pro doesn't mean you'll compete in lots of contests, there's plenty of favoritism in strongman.

[Adam Keep]

I'm not quite sure how beating unproven amatuers means you are good enough. No disrespect to anyone meant. Just trying to understand why us athletes need a pro card while others are invited based on performances and abilities.


How often does beating unproven amateurs earn you a pro card anyway?

Your question has been answered a few times already, but here goes one more. We have the pro system because we have a ton of competitors, need something to separate the better guys from the guys still coming up, and it allows a smaller/better selection for promoters to chose from for international competitions. A lot of other nations don't have the pro card system because they just don't have enough athletes. If there were thousands like we have here than I could see justifying it, but as of now most small amateur comps have more competitors than an entire country's worth of competitors out here in Europe.


Playing one baseball game and earning your pro card is not even near the same thing. Like Dane said, it is easy to flub a win in baseball, but if you can't lift a certain amount you are not going to be a pro strongman.

[Billy Wolt]

How often does beating unproven amateurs earn you a pro card anyway?

Your question has been answered a few times already, but here goes one more. We have the pro system because we have a ton of competitors, need something to separate the better guys from the guys still coming up, and it allows a smaller/better selection for promoters to chose from for international competitions. A lot of other nations don't have the pro card system because they just don't have enough athletes. If there were thousands like we have here than I could see justifying it, but as of now most small amateur comps have more competitors than an entire country's worth of competitors out here in Europe.


Playing one baseball game and earning your pro card is not even near the same thing. Like Dane said, it is easy to flub a win in baseball, but if you can't lift a certain amount you are not going to be a pro strongman.

i see where you are coming from...but let me throw out an example...

lets say i decided to put on an invitational show....I want to invite athletes from all over the world based on how good i think they are. Are US pros bound by some contract that would keep them from competing? what if I thought there were top amatuers that I think could do well and wanted them to compete as well?

[Billy Wolt]

Because some people make lots of money off of the pro card system. And just having a pro card and doing well as a pro doesn't mean you'll compete in lots of contests, there's plenty of favoritism in strongman.

are you limited to what contests you can/can't do?

[Justin Blake]

US athletes dont need a pro card to compete, the pro card allows US athletes to compete in sanctioned ASC contests. Winning a pro card is simply part of the feeder system that has been set up as part of NAS and ASC. This system is set up to properly prepare strongmen in the US for the highest national and international level contests, as well as make it something that one has to earn (as opposed to being arbitrarily picked by an individual). The system works for 99% of Pro US strongmen, though there are a few i think that dont have pro cards(Pfister???Siders???).

SO:

No, us strongmen dont need a procard

No, they dont all have them, but without it they are not qualified to compete in many of the top US contests.


i think that should answer your questions

[Matthew White]

This is a good thread, alot of good information coming from it. Yeah, I like the invitational.

[Billy Wolt]

US athletes dont need a pro card to compete, the pro card allows US athletes to compete in sanctioned ASC contests. Winning a pro card is simply part of the feeder system that has been set up as part of NAS and ASC. This system is set up to properly prepare strongmen in the US for the highest national and international level contests, as well as make it something that one has to earn (as opposed to being arbitrarily picked by an individual). The system works for 99% of Pro US strongmen, though there are a few i think that dont have pro cards(Pfister???Siders???).

SO:

No, us strongmen dont need a procard

No, they dont all have them, but without it they are not qualified to compete in many of the top US contests.


i think that should answer your questions

yes, that does answer my questions. Many many thanks.

are US athletes w/pro cards limited to ASC santioned shows?

[Scott Markowitz]

I can't imagine that they are, since I read about them competing overseas all the time.

[Adam Keep]

yes, that does answer my questions. Many many thanks.

are US athletes w/pro cards limited to ASC santioned shows?

No we aren't limited to ASC contests at all. I haven't competed in an ASC show in over a year due to military service and living overseas (i had to apply for a waiver though).

[Billy Wolt]

No we aren't limited to ASC contests at all. I haven't competed in an ASC show in over a year due to military service and living overseas (i had to apply for a waiver though).


so even in the US you are not limited?

[Paul F.X. Armstrong]

I don't think some of the old school guys(that are still competing)actually have a pro card?
Phil has been competing in "pro"shows since 1998--before the Pro card system began.

[Steve Mac]

You are limited to what contests you can do if you are an ASC pro, you can get a waiver but the fact that you can get one doesn't mean you will get one. I competed in a non-ASC sanctioned contest in Philadelphia a couple months ago and now I am no longer welcome at ASC contests. And I don't really care. I had enough of their "qualifying". Quite often guys will qualify for contests at ASC events but the ASC favorites end up going to the international events regardless of where they placed or whether they even competed at all.

[Billy Wolt]

You are limited to what contests you can do if you are an ASC pro, you can get a waiver but the fact that you can get one doesn't mean you will get one. I competed in a non-ASC sanctioned contest in Philadelphia a couple months ago and now I am no longer welcome at ASC contests. And I don't really care. I had enough of their "qualifying". Quite often guys will qualify for contests at ASC events but the ASC favorites end up going to the international events regardless of where they placed or whether they even competed at all.

eye opening to say the least.

[Adam Keep]

You are limited to what contests you can do if you are an ASC pro, you can get a waiver but the fact that you can get one doesn't mean you will get one. I competed in a non-ASC sanctioned contest in Philadelphia a couple months ago and now I am no longer welcome at ASC contests. And I don't really care. I had enough of their "qualifying". Quite often guys will qualify for contests at ASC events but the ASC favorites end up going to the international events regardless of where they placed or whether they even competed at all.


I wasn't aware of this at all. Kind of a bummer. I hope you still compete in some big contests anyways man, you were always fun to watch.

[MarshallWhite]

The system is set the way it is for a variety of reasons...most of which have been mentioned here. We as pros are not limited to only ASC shows...every once in a while though there may be some personal or competitive differences with ASC in which ASC may forbid competing in person's/company's show...generally speaking though these are few and far between and Dione is quite reasonable when working with the pros. In my opinion she and Willy have set up a great system that allows me to compete on a regular basis with the best in America and Dione often sets up international shows for her athletes. Every system has it's flaws and every one also has some rules that I may or may not like...as of right now ASC has the best system in my opinion and I think this is exemplified by the level of athlete ASC has fostered in the past couple of years...I don't think it is any coincidence that the guys at the top of ASC also happen to be the best Americans in the world (I do of course realize there are one or two exceptions). :IMHO:

[Barry Perkins]

to answer the other part of your question billy...
you do not have to be a ASC pro to compete in WSM.....

if you know the right folks you could get an invite....and of course have somewhat of a reasonable record of successful contests under your belt...

siders is a good example..

[Adam Keep]

to answer the other part of your question billy...
you do not have to be a ASC pro to compete in WSM.....

if you know the right folks you could get an invite....and of course have somewhat of a reasonable record of successful contests under your belt...

siders is a good example..

Pfister is another example of that. He has not been a pro for quite some time now.

[Mike Landrich]

I believe ASC pros can compete in any contest they want outside of the US though, can't they? So an invitation to compete internationally could be accepted, if the pro were willing to live with the consequences Steve MacDonald seems to be enduring.

[Billy Wolt]

I believe ASC pros can compete in any contest they want outside of the US though, can't they? So an invitation to compete internationally could be accepted, if the pro were willing to live with the consequences Steve MacDonald seems to be enduring.

The sport is so small that the athletes should be free to compete whereever they want, unless of course the fed is paying them a salary

[anton axelsson]

i have another quetion could a lightweight pro qualifie for the WSM?. and if not what is the benafit of being a lightweight pro?

and as for europe there are a ton of strongman competitors and no pro system there are just qualifier shows and whoever wins it goese.i know atleast in iceland there is one qualifier show put on each year icelands strongest man whoever wins that goese to WSM. and there is no pro stattus set there.or weight class if you compete you compete against the big boys and you bettre be strong enough to hang thats the viking way

[Barry Perkins]

i have another quetion could a lightweight pro qualifie for the WSM?. and if not what is the benafit of being a lightweight pro?

and as for europe there are a ton of strongman competitors and no pro system there are just qualifier shows and whoever wins it goese.i know atleast in iceland there is one qualifier show put on each year icelands strongest man whoever wins that goese to WSM. and there is no pro stattus set there.or weight class if you compete you compete against the big boys and you bettre be strong enough to hang thats the viking way

darren sadler was a light weight..but he's british..and WSM is a british production...and they were looking to have more representation..

[Mike Landrich]

i have another quetion could a lightweight pro qualifie for the WSM?

There are some tremendously strong LWs, but they would have a tough time going against equally talented HWs. The contest is really not designed for LWs, much like basketball is not designed for pygmies.

[rjpe99]

I think the pro card system is the way to go. It gives us AMs something to strive for. We should have to earn the right to get into the big shows. It would get out of hand if anyone could enter any contest. I do wish that we still had the pro/am system instead of the platinum plus contests. It was nice to compete against the pros in that format.

[anton axelsson]

There are some tremendously strong LWs, but they would have a tough time going against equally talented HWs. The contest is really not designed for LWs, much like basketball is not designed for pygmies.

so realy there is no point in going for a lw pro status then.. atleast not in the states rite?? then why have the pro lw division?? all ive seen is lw pro nationals and some of the pros competeing in 265 class in amature contest is that it for lw pros?? and im just inquering so please dont take it like im putting anyone down

[Scott Markowitz]

There are 105kg nationals in at least the US and UK (probably other countries too) and there at least used to be 105kg worlds. It doesn't get the same coverage as the big guys, but that's the case in most sports.

As far as whether there's a point in going pro as a LW - that's a matter of personal motivation. It's the top of the game for their weight class.

[Jay Lee]

anyone have a picture of the pro card? O_o does it look freaking awesome? i want one ;(

[anton axelsson]

There are 105kg nationals in at least the US and UK (probably other countries too) and there at least used to be 105kg worlds. It doesn't get the same coverage as the big guys, but that's the case in most sports.

As far as whether there's a point in going pro as a LW - that's a matter of personal motivation. It's the top of the game for their weight class.

well isnt it all of our dreams to ones compete in the WSM and be the WSM..but inorder to do so we have to be well over 270lbs.. all im saying is why couldnt we send a top lw and top hw to worlds strongest man look at daren saddler LW competed at wsm and did quite well against the heavys..

[Jonathan Macfarlane]

So what I want to know is, what happens to non-US citizens/international athletes who want to compete on US soil? I noticed in Hawaii some of the Australian guys competed as pro's, which is what any top guy would be considered here (except the talent pool is alot smaller and weaker). I'm looking to go into strongman as my primary focus later this year, then move to SoCal in 09 for school. Obviously I'd like to compete, but know I can't currently compete with the big dogs on very little event training.

Do I join the AM field trying to earn a pro-card, or claim pro-status based on being from outside the US? I'm just not sure how this works. The talent pool in the US is so stacked that top US AM's would beat the top pro's from the Southern Hemisphere like Boyer, Vaoga etc.

[Ryan Brown]

wouldn't the promotors of major events be able to judge one's abilities? does a pro card mean you CAN hang?

no; promoters do not necessarily know.

It does not necessarily mean you can hang, but it is a good indicator.

The pro system in the US has become more developed over time as the am system has become more developed. If you are top quality it is a non-issue. Even I won two pro-ams and I was not at the level of the very top guys, but at the time could beat most of the ams out there. My point is that if you have a shot of winning WSM, it is not like the pro card system is going to hold you back. So what is the problem?

I think it is a good system. I think this is evidenced by the huge sucess that the top Americans are having now. With the exception of Phil who has been around since before the pro card system, all of the American's won their pro card at a pro am or Nats. Siders is an invite only (still possible) and not a pro--I think his performance shows he is probably not at that level right now on the WSM type events. Obviously his strength is tops.

[Matt Parkes]

So what I want to know is, what happens to non-US citizens/international athletes who want to compete on US soil? I noticed in Hawaii some of the Australian guys competed as pro's, which is what any top guy would be considered here (except the talent pool is alot smaller and weaker). I'm looking to go into strongman as my primary focus later this year, then move to SoCal in 09 for school. Obviously I'd like to compete, but know I can't currently compete with the big dogs on very little event training.

Do I join the AM field trying to earn a pro-card, or claim pro-status based on being from outside the US? I'm just not sure how this works. The talent pool in the US is so stacked that top US AM's would beat the top pro's from the Southern Hemisphere like Boyer, Vaoga etc.

I think that it is basically up to Dione. If you are from another country and have competed and done fairly well against the best from your country I would bet that she would be happy to have you at an ASC show. Or if you have qualified or competed in a worlds or other higher level international show that would also probably ensure your acceptance. In fact expect at least 1 other Canadian HW to do a couple of ASC shows next year.

[chad coy]

Phil/Gillingham/Phillippi/Brown/My self/Odd( SORRY IF I LEFT SOMEONE OUT) were PRO before the system of "Cards" was made......and just to clarify there was the AFSA/NSAA/and IFSA-USA before the ASC..........it has given a measuring stick for guys coming up...it used to be guys would show up and get hurt , blown out, and never come back.... a few glitches maybe, but a good system non the less.

[Justin Blake]

So what I want to know is, what happens to non-US citizens/international athletes who want to compete on US soil? I noticed in Hawaii some of the Australian guys competed as pro's, which is what any top guy would be considered here (except the talent pool is alot smaller and weaker). I'm looking to go into strongman as my primary focus later this year, then move to SoCal in 09 for school. Obviously I'd like to compete, but know I can't currently compete with the big dogs on very little event training.

Do I join the AM field trying to earn a pro-card, or claim pro-status based on being from outside the US? I'm just not sure how this works. The talent pool in the US is so stacked that top US AM's would beat the top pro's from the Southern Hemisphere like Boyer, Vaoga etc.


Yes, you would compete in NAS, and attempt to win your ASC pro-card if you wished to. I think ASC (like Matt said) allows international competitors to compete in their contest's without a pro-card based on past international or high level national experience. THis would be decided on individual cases.

[Jonathan Macfarlane]

Thanks Matt and Justin. I guess that means I need to get training harder!

Was going to do the Australian Hercules which doubles as a Fortissimus qualifier, but looks like I may well be out of NZ by then, so won't have any international experience. I guess if you're good enough, you can play ball.

[Pierre Suter]

so realy there is no point in going for a lw pro status then.. atleast not in the states rite?? then why have the pro lw division?? all ive seen is lw pro nationals and some of the pros competeing in 265 class in amature contest is that it for lw pros?? and im just inquering so please dont take it like im putting anyone down

Anton that's like asking what's the point of being a LW boxing champ (like De La Hoya) since he can never beat the heavyweight champ. Even though the public only cares about heavyweights, sport enthusiasts care about the ligher classes too. LW competitors aim to be the best LW around... win NAS nationals, win pro Nats, win 105k worlds which is a hell of an accomplishment even if it's not aired on ESPN.

[Kalle Beck]

so realy there is no point in going for a lw pro status then.. atleast not in the states rite?? then why have the pro lw division?? all ive seen is lw pro nationals and some of the pros competeing in 265 class in amature contest is that it for lw pros?? and im just inquering so please dont take it like im putting anyone down


This is the way I see it Tony,

the 105kilo LW class is pretty new. Whats it been around for 4-6 years? It seems to be getting better and better. As strongman grows the LW class should grow as well. Most people don't know strongman has weight classes. I do think most people would be interested in seeing the "smaller" guys doing some amazing things. Of course there will always be more draw to see 300+lb freaks lifting even heavier but not everyone has the frame to carry that much weight If your strong enough to make worlds at 105kilos than you can. IE Darren Sadler. Ahola wasn't much over 260 as well.

I still think it would be cool and interesting if the winner of 105k Worlds was invited to WSM but seeing as they are not connected I don't see that happening.

[Ryan Carey]

This is the way I see it Tony,

the 105kilo LW class is pretty new. Whats it been around for 4-6 years? It seems to be getting better and better. As strongman grows the LW class should grow as well. Most people don't know strongman has weight classes. I do think most people would be interested in seeing the "smaller" guys doing some amazing things. Of course there will always be more draw to see 300+lb freaks lifting even heavier but not everyone has the frame to carry that much weight If your strong enough to make worlds at 105kilos than you can. IE Darren Sadler. Ahola wasn't much over 260 as well.

I still think it would be cool and interesting if the winner of 105k Worlds was invited to WSM but seeing as they are not connected I don't see that happening.

I definately agree with Kalle on this one. The 105k division is still in its growth stage. Their are alot of freaks in the 105k pro division. I mean look at when the WSM was in China, China had a competitor (forgot his name) but he did weigh only 230lbs and did not do to bad. I think it would be interesting for some of the top 105k pro competitors to get invited to the WSM. It would shake things up and be very entertaining as well.

[Barry Perkins]

here's another twist on the Pro amatuer thing...
Stefan Petterson (sp?)
competed with me in texas back in february .....
at the texas strongman classic...

just fyi...

[anton axelsson]

Anton that's like asking what's the point of being a LW boxing champ (like De La Hoya) since he can never beat the heavyweight champ. Even though the public only cares about heavyweights, sport enthusiasts care about the ligher classes too. LW competitors aim to be the best LW around... win NAS nationals, win pro Nats, win 105k worlds which is a hell of an accomplishment even if it's not aired on ESPN.

these 2 sports are not nearly the same to eaven compare them man.. as many lw sit at 240 250 and cut weight a top LW athlete should be able to qualifie for WSM as well just

[Mike Landrich]

these 2 sports are not nearly the same to eaven compare them man.. as many lw sit at 240 250 and cut weight a top LW athlete should be able to qualifie for WSM as well just


Boxers cut weight too. The weigh-in weight and fighting weight are vastly different. Should a middleweight fight a light-heavyweight then? Let the LW world champ revel in being just that, a world champion.

[AndrewPalmer]

these 2 sports are not nearly the same to eaven compare them man.. as many lw sit at 240 250 and cut weight a top LW athlete should be able to qualifie for WSM as well just


Nothing stops a liteweight from showing up and trying to earn an HW pro card. They just have to be able to beat the heavyweights.

Am I wrong about this?

[Mike Landrich]

Nothing stops a liteweight from showing up and trying to earn an HW pro card. They just have to be able to beat the heavyweights.

Am I wrong about this?

As Anton said, most LWs walking around weight is 240-250, so they just would have to not cut weight and compete as HWs. One of my training partners weighs around 225-230 and eats a big meal before weigh-ins just so he can compete as a HW.

[AndrewPalmer]

As Anton said, most LWs walking around weight is 240-250, so they just would have to not cut weight and compete as HWs. One of my training partners weighs around 225-230 and eats a big meal before weigh-ins just so he can compete as a HW.


Then I don't understand the issue. LWs ARE able to qualify their way up. They just have to be able to beat the heavies along the way. Seems reasonable to me.

[Billy Wolt]

Then I don't understand the issue. LWs ARE able to qualify their way up. They just have to be able to beat the heavies along the way. Seems reasonable to me.

I think his point was that lw's don't get the respect that the big guys do

[Scott Markowitz]

...and? Those who compete know what they're doing and can respect it. The general public always is more in awe of bigger weights. If a LW can hang with the HWs, he'd get the same "awe" factor.

[rjpe99]

Great thread - I believe started by Roger Ortamyer on the Anvil. This is a great response to Billy's questions/statements.

http://theanvil88051.yuku.com/topic/4282/t/NAS-is-building-the-World-s-Best.html

[Mike Landrich]

I think his point was that lw's don't get the respect that the big guys do

Its the same in all strength sports. We all know Mendelsohn, Kennelly and Rychlak, not to mention our own Vincent Dizenzo, as bench press monsters. Does anyone know the the 181 lb bench press record holder, without looking it up? Mr Olympia is never a bantamweight turned pro. Why should Strongman be different?

[anton axelsson]

the issue is not that a LW cant compete in HW. it's not a respect thing either,it's more why not have a WSM qualifier for the LW as well as LW's we train with very simaler weights used in WSM qualifiers more so LW pros so why not give a LW the oppertunity to compete in WSM as well??

i understand that the HW get more exsposure and all that good stuff but why not throw a
LW in the mix at the WSM?? again im just inquering

[Mike Landrich]

the issue is not that a LW cant compete in HW. it's not a respect thing either,it's more why not have a WSM qualifier for the LW as well as LW's we train with very simaler weights used in WSM qualifiers more so LW pros so why not give a LW the oppertunity to compete in WSM as well??

i understand that the HW get more exsposure and all that good stuff but why not throw a
LW in the mix at the WSM?? again im just inquering


A LW has to be as strong as a HW to be competitive, otherwise, they'd just embarrass themselves.

[D.J. Satterfield]

Then I don't understand the issue. LWs ARE able to qualify their way up. They just have to be able to beat the heavies along the way. Seems reasonable to me.
You are correct. A competitor could have a LW and HW pro card at the same time.

[Johnathon Conner]

the issue is not that a LW cant compete in HW. it's not a respect thing either,it's more why not have a WSM qualifier for the LW as well as LW's we train with very simaler weights used in WSM qualifiers more so LW pros so why not give a LW the oppertunity to compete in WSM as well??

i understand that the HW get more exsposure and all that good stuff but why not throw a
LW in the mix at the WSM?? again im just inquering


big prob with this, unless you make him weigh in and not let him compete if over 231 it is just another heavyweight. The system we have now is great. i have so much respect for everyone who competes but seroiusly if you cant beat ams what right do you have to compete with the top guys in the world. I am a new pro and i am glad i had to work my way up, i discovered lots of weaknesses along the way and feel like i am a better athlete. what good would it do to compete at the top and get last in everything or zero out on most lifts? Having one or two good events dosent mean anything in an 8+event contest.

[Matt Parkes]

the issue is not that a LW cant compete in HW. it's not a respect thing either,it's more why not have a WSM qualifier for the LW as well as LW's we train with very simaler weights used in WSM qualifiers more so LW pros so why not give a LW the oppertunity to compete in WSM as well??

i understand that the HW get more exsposure and all that good stuff but why not throw a
LW in the mix at the WSM?? again im just inquering

So you throw a LW into the mix just for the heck of it. Now go and tell the HW who would be the 30th guy that he doesn't get to go because we want to see what happens. Everybody in this sport has the chance to earn his way to WSM. But everybody has to do it in the open weight class. A LW can earn his way there. In Darren Sadler's case he needs to come in the top 5 at BSM. In my country you have to be top 2 at CSM and we actually had a LW qualify for CSM through his region this year and he had the chance to go to WSM but he didn't place high enough at the contest.

[Jim Glassman]

Phil/Gillingham/Phillippi/Brown/My self/Odd( SORRY IF I LEFT SOMEONE OUT) were PRO before the system of "Cards" was made......and just to clarify there was the AFSA/NSAA/and IFSA-USA before the ASC..........it has given a measuring stick for guys coming up...it used to be guys would show up and get hurt , blown out, and never come back.... a few glitches maybe, but a good system non the less.

Just me buddy. :EP:

[chad coy]

I'm curious....

why is it that the US has a pro card system while other nations invite athletes based on contest performances?
""""THIS SYSTEM WAS CREATED IN 02.....Untested guys would show up and get smoked or hurt....so the card was a way to "qualify" guys to do pro shows.....now there are the rare few that could show up and compete, but not many!""""

Are US strongmen required to have pro cards in order to get to WSM, or other large events?
"""WSM is still a TV show.....and they can select anyone they choose.....the "system " used to feed the top 5 guys from the ASM, but now the "powers that be" have changed( Douglas out....Ulf in) and they are going in a different direction...still political BS ."""

Did all the top US strongmen earn pro cards? would they not be were they are without it?

""""i THINK THE SYSTEM HAS ALLOWED GUYS TO MATURE( Sport wise...plenty of not mature strongman out there)......The card means little( you will not get a free meal for showing it) and they are not much to look at, but the process is producing some great guys.....Dave O.......Travis...derek...Shaw...Bergmann...Knee... .Phil is of the X-MAN genetic strain and has been a freak since the day he walked into my gym 10 years ago!

It seems like other sports don't have pro cards...if you're good, you get selected to join the majors...if your not good, then you don't make the pros.
""" PRO'S GET DRAFTED in every major sport because they have proven themselves at the amateur level...okay a few skip college and go directly out of HS....but very very few!"""

Look at the USA depth...it is so deep because of the system...and just to clarify NAS/ASC did not create the system...it was Jim Davis( many old timers had input and insite) NAS and ASC STUCK WITH IT BECAUSE IT WORKED!

Many of you guys bitch and complain, but have no real answer or way to change things....do we need a new or another organizing body...NO.........I have stated to NAS/ASC....bring on a few other people to help and grow forward, but this is their business and they make the choices....and unless you are willing to do a better job...SHUT UP....go back to the gym and train and get off your key board.

As far as a LW PRO getting invited to the WSM.....WHY? People go to the zoo to see the big game...not the petting zoo to see something they could see at the fair. Man up eat and grow......Jouko was 264 and without his boots no taller than me( 5'11")....I have competed with the best and weighed avg. 260...for 11 years....it can be done...

Sorry its a bit long, but I have been thinking about this all day!

[anton axelsson]

A LW has to be as strong as a HW to be competitive, otherwise, they'd just embarrass themselves.

i understand that mike im talking if he was.and i am just asking a simple quetion creating a deacent debate on the issue..

[Johnathon Conner]

i understand that mike im talking if he was.and i am just asking a simple quetion creating a deacent debate on the issue..

Well you just answered your own question. if he were strong enough he would be a hw pro and qualify. I dont understand a reason for debate, if you cant beat hw ams how why do you expect to beat the hw pros?

[Justin Blake]

I think his point was that lw's don't get the respect that the big guys do

i think we get plenty of respect in the 105k division, just not as much attention

[Justin Blake]

So you throw a LW into the mix just for the heck of it. Now go and tell the HW who would be the 30th guy that he doesn't get to go because we want to see what happens. Everybody in this sport has the chance to earn his way to WSM. But everybody has to do it in the open weight class. A LW can earn his way there. In Darren Sadler's case he needs to come in the top 5 at BSM. In my country you have to be top 2 at CSM and we actually had a LW qualify for CSM through his region this year and he had the chance to go to WSM but he didn't place high enough at the contest.

than again, if they let you in they will let anyone...ummm nevermind!

what up MATTY! :xo:

[Mike Landrich]

i understand that mike im talking if he was.and i am just asking a simple quetion creating a deacent debate on the issue..

WSM is one great big OPEN weight class competition (well TV show). A LW could be there. but it would be as OPEN class competitor, not as a LW. There are LWs who would do OK, but none could beat the the elite HWs. I hope there is a LW out there who can and will prove me wrong, but it will be when he competes against the HWs and wins a spot.

[rjpe99]

I'm curious....

why is it that the US has a pro card system while other nations invite athletes based on contest performances?
""""THIS SYSTEM WAS CREATED IN 02.....Untested guys would show up and get smoked or hurt....so the card was a way to "qualify" guys to do pro shows.....now there are the rare few that could show up and compete, but not many!""""

Are US strongmen required to have pro cards in order to get to WSM, or other large events?
"""WSM is still a TV show.....and they can select anyone they choose.....the "system " used to feed the top 5 guys from the ASM, but now the "powers that be" have changed( Douglas out....Ulf in) and they are going in a different direction...still political BS ."""

Did all the top US strongmen earn pro cards? would they not be were they are without it?

""""i THINK THE SYSTEM HAS ALLOWED GUYS TO MATURE( Sport wise...plenty of not mature strongman out there)......The card means little( you will not get a free meal for showing it) and they are not much to look at, but the process is producing some great guys.....Dave O.......Travis...derek...Shaw...Bergmann...Knee... .Phil is of the X-MAN genetic strain and has been a freak since the day he walked into my gym 10 years ago!

It seems like other sports don't have pro cards...if you're good, you get selected to join the majors...if your not good, then you don't make the pros.
""" PRO'S GET DRAFTED in every major sport because they have proven themselves at the amateur level...okay a few skip college and go directly out of HS....but very very few!"""

Look at the USA depth...it is so deep because of the system...and just to clarify NAS/ASC did not create the system...it was Jim Davis( many old timers had input and insite) NAS and ASC STUCK WITH IT BECAUSE IT WORKED!

Many of you guys bitch and complain, but have no real answer or way to change things....do we need a new or another organizing body...NO.........I have stated to NAS/ASC....bring on a few other people to help and grow forward, but this is their business and they make the choices....and unless you are willing to do a better job...SHUT UP....go back to the gym and train and get off your key board.

As far as a LW PRO getting invited to the WSM.....WHY? People go to the zoo to see the big game...not the petting zoo to see something they could see at the fair. Man up eat and grow......Jouko was 264 and without his boots no taller than me( 5'11")....I have competed with the best and weighed avg. 260...for 11 years....it can be done...

Sorry its a bit long, but I have been thinking about this all day!


Very good post!

[Tom Mutaffis]

WSM is one great big OPEN weight class competition (well TV show). A LW could be there. but it would be as OPEN class competitor, not as a LW. There are LWs who would do OK, but none could beat the the elite HWs. I hope there is a LW out there who can and will prove me wrong, but it will be when he competes against the HWs and wins a spot.

I would be willing to bet that Janne Hartikainen could earn his HW Pro card in the US... 3 time 105K world champion from Finland. He has beat Saddler in competition before (by a good margin) so would definitely be interesting to see him at WSM if he got the invite.

[Mike Landrich]

I would be willing to bet that Janne Hartikainen could earn his HW Pro card in the US... 3 time 105K world champion from Finland. He has beat Saddler in competition before (by a good margin) so would definitely be interesting to see him at WSM if he got the invite.

Like I said, I'd love to see a LW be competitive against world-class HWs. It may happen once in a great while, but it will never be the norm. He'd be like Spud Webb in the NBA (yeah I know most of you never heard of him, but the old guys might remember him).

[D.J. Satterfield]

Slam dunk champion. I am ancient like you Mike.

[Scott Markowitz]

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[Kalle Beck]

I would be willing to bet that Janne Hartikainen could earn his HW Pro card in the US... 3 time 105K world champion from Finland. He has beat Saddler in competition before (by a good margin) so would definitely be interesting to see him at WSM if he got the invite.

This is what I was saying. The winner of 105K Worlds would be worthy of a qualifying spot IMO.

[Ryan Rhodes]

I'm curious....

why is it that the US has a pro card system while other nations invite athletes based on contest performances?

Are US strongmen required to have pro cards in order to get to WSM, or other large events?

Did all the top US strongmen earn pro cards? would they not be were they are without it?

It seems like other sports don't have pro cards...if you're good, you get selected to join the majors...if your not good, then you don't make the pros.


I don't think our pros are required to maintain any standard of performance to retain their cards either. I think they only have to compete (minimun) X amount of times in a pro-am every couple of years. There are a some guys from back in the day that would have a near impossible time hanging with the pros that have come out the last few years, but still have pro cards. There's no bumping back to the "minors", requalifying or anything like that.

[Ryan Rhodes]

i think we get plenty of respect in the 105k division, just not as much attention

That a problem. Once you go pro as a LW, how many opportunities a year do you have to compete? Very few pro ams. Fewer if any intl. shows. So you're either relegated to doing nothing for two years waiting for your card to expire so you can go back to competing regularly in Am shows, or training year round to have a chance at a couple of low profile shows a year. Seems kind of silly. The pro LW division is sorely neglected.

[D.J. Satterfield]

Keep in mind that LW pros can compete in any am show as a HW.

[Tom Mutaffis]

Keep in mind that LW pros can compete in any am show as a HW.

Great point.

Kirk Nowack was 3rd last year in the 265 lbs class at Nationals, and that was during his rehab process after an injury.

In 2006 at the Garden State Strongman Classic there was a great battle between Kirk Nowack, Kevin Nowack, and Jamey Niewojna (all LW Pro's) along with a handfull of Heavyweight Competitors.

I believe Jared Spybrook used to compete as a HW prior to moving over to the LW class - but he posts on here and can speak more to that.

Adam Keep competes in open weight class contests at the international level overseas and does well (top 3 finishes while giving up over 40 lbs of bodyweight to the next lightest competitor).

Based on the numbers put up at LW Pro Nationals I think a lot of these guys could make an impact and put together podium finishes in the HW weight class if they chose to.

Another thing to look at is how quickly this sport has progressed - just a couple of years ago a 300 log was huge, now it is the standard to be considered a "good presser" in the LW group. You can consistantly see 700+ tires, 700+ yoke, 300+ farmers, and 365 or even sometimes heavier stones for LW amateur contests. A lot of the athletes have adapted and I think that we may see some Joko Ahoulo, Chad Coy, Darren Sadler, and other "undersized" LW competitors popping up in some high level contests. I know Justin Blake and a lot of other guys could hang with a lot of the pro HW guys out there in most any moving event or medley, with static strength not too far behind.

[Scott Porter]

I think LW Pros in general are underestimated by a lot HW's. I could come up with a list of events where the top ASC LW Pros could hang with the lots of the ASC HW Pros.

One example...Scott Weech just turned HW Pro and missed a 400 stone in the series. A handful of LW's could have loaded that.

Another example, Jeff Peterson turned HW Pro in his first try and weighed 250, which is what a lot of LW Pro's sit at.

Most conditioning events LW's will hang. Speed events if the weight was light LW's will hang. Pressing and deadlifting usually not.

I train with one of the best HW Pro's out there in Kevin Nee and he will tell you on some events I have beaten him in training. I also used to be close in strength to HW Pro Ryan Bakke but then he got medieval and crazy strong.

[Eric Todd]

Im pretty sure In the Central USA this year, the Pros were scored together and Blake beat them all, HWs included. Correct me if Im wrong.
ET

[Billy Wolt]

I think LW Pros in general are underestimated by a lot HW's. I could come up with a list of events where the top ASC LW Pros could hang with the lots of the ASC HW Pros.

One example...Scott Weech just turned HW Pro and missed a 400 stone in the series. A handful of LW's could have loaded that.


are you saying weech can't load a 400? or was he so beat up from the competition that he didn't have the strength left?

heck..there were 500lb stone loaders at MSG a couple months ago, but nobody loaded the entire series which end at 420.


Also, does competiting as a HW allow the LW to keep their pro card?

[Steve Trippe]

As far as a LW PRO getting invited to the WSM.....WHY? People go to the zoo to see the big game...not the petting zoo to see something they could see at the fair. Man up eat and grow......


You had a good post until this point. No matter what zoo you are going to, it takes balls to compete at the pro-level. I might not have a pro-card, but I can promise that all the LW pro's have done just as much "manning up" as you, the fact that you are heavier only makes you a heavier man, not more of a man.

I competed at an international level of wrestling in high school, and while it might not be the same thing, I can tell you that the competition at the lighter weight classes is just as tough if not tougher than the heavier weight classes. There were guys heavier than me with less accomplished, but they would win in practice when we drilled. Does that make them better than me? No, it makes them heavier and stronger.

[Scott Markowitz]

Heavier, stronger, and from the casual fan's point of view, more interesting to watch.

I don't think any serious competitor would discount what LWs do. The issue is that Joe and Jane Sixpack are more interested in watching HWs because they can do more in absolute terms. More Joes and Janes = more advertising = more $ = more tv. Which also leads to more Joes and Janes.

Most of us on here are just as appreciative of, eg, a 3x BW DL whether it's a 200# guy doing 600# or a 300# guy doing 900#. Joe and Jane would rather see 900# every time.

[Justin Blake]

Keep in mind that LW pros can compete in any am show as a HW.

exactly, i have once already, and will do HW nats every chance i get in NAS schedule permitting

[Steve Trippe]

Heavier, stronger, and from the casual fan's point of view, more interesting to watch.

I don't think any serious competitor would discount what LWs do. The issue is that Joe and Jane Sixpack are more interested in watching HWs because they can do more in absolute terms. More Joes and Janes = more advertising = more $ = more tv. Which also leads to more Joes and Janes.

Most of us on here are just as appreciative of, eg, a 3x BW DL whether it's a 200# guy doing 600# or a 300# guy doing 900#. Joe and Jane would rather see 900# every time.

I don't dispute this at all, but to tell a LW competitor that they need to "man up" and move up in weight is a terrible point. Not everyone shares the same goals. To compare a LW competitor to a "petting zoo" animal is just stupid.

[Ryan Carey]

I don't dispute this at all, but to tell a LW competitor that they need to "man up" and move up in weight is a terrible point. Not everyone shares the same goals. To compare a LW competitor to a "petting zoo" animal is just stupid.

I totally agree. To compare a LW competitor to a petting zoo animal is a bit much.

[Scott Porter]

are you saying weech can't load a 400? or was he so beat up from the competition that he didn't have the strength left?

heck..there were 500lb stone loaders at MSG a couple months ago, but nobody loaded the entire series which end at 420.


Also, does competiting as a HW allow the LW to keep their pro card?

I said "he didn't load the 400". I stated a fact.

I'm not discounting the fact that it was a heavy contest and that often changes things up quite a bit, but there are LW's who have loaded a 400 in a series.

[Scott Porter]

What's funny and very ironic about this comment...

Quote:
Originally Posted by chad coy
As far as a LW PRO getting invited to the WSM.....WHY? People go to the zoo to see the big game...not the petting zoo to see something they could see at the fair. Man up eat and grow......


...is that Chad Coy is a HW Pro trying to go LW Pro. What? Couldn't hang with the HW's? Can't "man up" anymore?

I'm sorry but his comment is absolutely ridiculous. A lot of LW's go about 250, not everyone has the genetics or desire to be 300 (and sometimes more unhealthy). In a lot of cases 250 lb. guys eat as much or possibly more than 300 lb. guys and the issue of "man up" I won't even address.

Sincerely,

Scott Porter
LW Pro , 250 lbs.
Not willing to "man up"

[Chris Berry]

Originally Posted by chad coy
As far as a LW PRO getting invited to the WSM.....WHY? People go to the zoo to see the big game...not the petting zoo to see something they could see at the fair. Man up eat and grow......



That reminds me of a dan harrison post. i believe a few of the best LW could be competitive in the HW class and beyond. I have no desire to man up and grow to be 280-300lbs i feel healty at 228lbs but i feel if i keep training hard i could do just as well in the HW class as the LW class i dont see much difference in the two. I also train with a good LW pro and a top level HW AM there really isn't much difference.

[rjpe99]

I'm curious....

why is it that the US has a pro card system while other nations invite athletes based on contest performances?
""""THIS SYSTEM WAS CREATED IN 02.....Untested guys would show up and get smoked or hurt....so the card was a way to "qualify" guys to do pro shows.....now there are the rare few that could show up and compete, but not many!""""

Are US strongmen required to have pro cards in order to get to WSM, or other large events?
"""WSM is still a TV show.....and they can select anyone they choose.....the "system " used to feed the top 5 guys from the ASM, but now the "powers that be" have changed( Douglas out....Ulf in) and they are going in a different direction...still political BS ."""

Did all the top US strongmen earn pro cards? would they not be were they are without it?

""""i THINK THE SYSTEM HAS ALLOWED GUYS TO MATURE( Sport wise...plenty of not mature strongman out there)......The card means little( you will not get a free meal for showing it) and they are not much to look at, but the process is producing some great guys.....Dave O.......Travis...derek...Shaw...Bergmann...Knee... .Phil is of the X-MAN genetic strain and has been a freak since the day he walked into my gym 10 years ago!

It seems like other sports don't have pro cards...if you're good, you get selected to join the majors...if your not good, then you don't make the pros.
""" PRO'S GET DRAFTED in every major sport because they have proven themselves at the amateur level...okay a few skip college and go directly out of HS....but very very few!"""

Look at the USA depth...it is so deep because of the system...and just to clarify NAS/ASC did not create the system...it was Jim Davis( many old timers had input and insite) NAS and ASC STUCK WITH IT BECAUSE IT WORKED!

Many of you guys bitch and complain, but have no real answer or way to change things....do we need a new or another organizing body...NO.........I have stated to NAS/ASC....bring on a few other people to help and grow forward, but this is their business and they make the choices....and unless you are willing to do a better job...SHUT UP....go back to the gym and train and get off your key board.

As far as a LW PRO getting invited to the WSM.....WHY? People go to the zoo to see the big game...not the petting zoo to see something they could see at the fair. Man up eat and grow......Jouko was 264 and without his boots no taller than me( 5'11")....I have competed with the best and weighed avg. 260...for 11 years....it can be done...

Sorry its a bit long, but I have been thinking about this all day!

Wow I didn't see this part when I commented before. How did this thread become about LW vs HW? Both weight classes have amazing athletes. I understand that the light weights don't get as much attention but that is just the nature of the sport. Most people that aren't involved with the sport just want to see big massive guys moving massive weights. To me it is just as impressive if not more when a guy who weighs 100lbs less moves slightly less weight but the people at WSM obviously don't see it that way. I think as the sport continues to grow the LW pros will start to get the attention they deserve.

[Mike Landrich]

How did this thread become about LW vs HW?


Because some don't seem to understand that LWs and HWs are not created equal. Both have their strengths and weaknesses. Unfortunately for LWs, WSM is not designed for LWs.


Before anyone gets their frilly undergarments in a knot, I personally am a LW carrying 50 lbs too much of fat, not a real HW, so I'm not bagging on any of you. I'm just calling it as I see it.

[anton axelsson]

What's funny and very ironic about this comment...




...is that Chad Coy is a HW Pro trying to go LW Pro. What? Couldn't hang with the HW's? Can't "man up" anymore?

I'm sorry but his comment is absolutely ridiculous. A lot of LW's go about 250, not everyone has the genetics or desire to be 300 (and sometimes more unhealthy). In a lot of cases 250 lb. guys eat as much or possibly more than 300 lb. guys and the issue of "man up" I won't even address.

Sincerely,

Scott Porter
LW Pro , 250 lbs.
Not willing to "man up"


very well said scott that is exsacly what i wanted to say couldnt find the words kinda tickd me off...

[anton axelsson]

Because some don't seem to understand that LWs and HWs are not created equal. Both have their strengths and weaknesses. Unfortunately for LWs, WSM is not designed for LWs.


Before anyone gets their frilly undergarments in a knot, I personally am a LW carrying 50 lbs too much of fat, not a real HW, so I'm not bagging on any of you. I'm just calling it as I see it.

so putting a LW with the same streangth as a heavy and no desire to be a HW doesnt deserve to go to wsm beacause he is not a fat ass????

[Matt Wanat]

What's funny and very ironic about this comment...




...is that Chad Coy is a HW Pro trying to go LW Pro. What? Couldn't hang with the HW's? Can't "man up" anymore?

I'm sorry but his comment is absolutely ridiculous. A lot of LW's go about 250, not everyone has the genetics or desire to be 300 (and sometimes more unhealthy). In a lot of cases 250 lb. guys eat as much or possibly more than 300 lb. guys and the issue of "man up" I won't even address.

Sincerely,

Scott Porter
LW Pro , 250 lbs.
Not willing to "man up"


If you knew your strongman history, you'd know that Chad Coy has competed and hung with the HW's for about 10 years now. If I'm not mistaken, he appeared in 10 consecutive(at least when it was held) ASM's and was the WSM alternate from the US in '97 or '98. I think you'll find that he is sick of manning up and is going to do something a little bit easier on his body.

[Zach Snyder]

so putting a LW with the same streangth as a heavy and no desire to be a HW doesnt deserve to go to wsm beacause he is not a fat ass????

I have yet to see a LW with the same strength as someone at the top of the American HWs now (TX, Poundstone, Nee, Ostlund, Bergman, Pfister.)

Maybe i'm mistaken, but i haven't seen a LW strongman DL 900lbs like some of the HWs have. Or, i haven't seen a lightweight jerk a 400+lb log. Or, load a 500lb stone.

WSM is not as heavy as other shows, but throwing a LW in with the HWs just because is a bad idea. If someone wants to go to worlds, they do need to "man up" and get to the HW division, generally speaking. Trying to get to world's is hard enough as is. Your chances of making it to worlds as a 220-230 lightweight american while there's guys who are bigger and stronger than you is a pipe dream.

It sucks that there's no glorious, flashy, tv program for the lightweights, but that's how it is.

[MarshallWhite]

I wish I could look like most of the LW's those guys are freaking ripped most of the time! Oh yeah and the pound for pound strength would be cool too .............. :LOL:

[Scott Porter]

If you knew your strongman history, you'd know that Chad Coy has competed and hung with the HW's for about 10 years now. If I'm not mistaken, he appeared in 10 consecutive(at least when it was held) ASM's and was the WSM alternate from the US in '97 or '98. I think you'll find that he is sick of manning up and is going to do something a little bit easier on his body.

I do know my history. I know who Chad Coy is. That's why I said the word "anymore".

Competing in strongman as a HW Pro doesn't take any more "manning up" than it does to be a LW Pro.

And strongman isn't easy on the body, if you're a LW or HW.

[Scott Porter]

I have yet to see a LW with the same strength as someone at the top of the American HWs now (TX, Poundstone, Nee, Ostlund, Bergman, Pfister.)

Maybe i'm mistaken, but i haven't seen a LW strongman DL 900lbs like some of the HWs have. Or, i haven't seen a lightweight jerk a 400+lb log. Or, load a 500lb stone.

WSM is not as heavy as other shows, but throwing a LW in with the HWs just because is a bad idea. If someone wants to go to worlds, they do need to "man up" and get to the HW division, generally speaking. Trying to get to world's is hard enough as is. Your chances of making it to worlds as a 220-230 lightweight american while there's guys who are bigger and stronger than you is a pipe dream.

It sucks that there's no glorious, flashy, tv program for the lightweights, but that's how it is.

You are right in that a LW cannot match a 900 DL or a 400 log or load a 500 stone. But let's not get silly here. There are only a few HW Pros who can do that and in the case of the deadlift only 1 who can pull 900.

[Matt Wanat]

I do know my history. I know who Chad Coy is. That's why I said the word "anymore".

Competing in strongman as a HW Pro doesn't take any more "manning up" than it does to be a LW Pro.

And strongman isn't easy on the body, if you're a LW or HW.


I'm saying that it's easier on him to not try to be 20-40 lbs over a "normal" weight for him.

I agree on the "manning up" comment. I think that anyone who is competing in this crazy sport deserves respect. I also agree with Chad's point that a LW competing at WSM will happen when a LW is good enough to do it. Jouko Ahola was great at ~260. The Bergmann's(all three of them) compete at a very high level regardless of weight. Jarod Spybrook is amazing and has beaten pros, lw or hw.

[Matt Wanat]

You are right in that a LW cannot match a 900 DL or a 400 log or load a 500 stone. But let's not get silly here. There are only a few HW Pros who can do that and in the case of the deadlift only 1 who can pull 900.


Even if you lower the numbers to a 360 log and an 800 deadlift, I'm not sure of any lw pros who can do that. I think it's fair to say that a lot of the US hw pros can put up those numbers.

[Zach Snyder]

You are right in that a LW cannot match a 900 DL or a 400 log or load a 500 stone. But let's not get silly here. There are only a few HW Pros who can do that and in the case of the deadlift only 1 who can pull 900.

true, but we're talking about lws going to worlds. some of the americans who made it this year:

Bergman: 400lb log, 1000lb yoke run
Poundstone: 550lb stone, probably close if he can't do a 400lb log,
Ortmayer: 805x2 deadlift, awesome at stones
Ostlund: awesome at stones and farmers
Nee: 900lb deadlift, awesome at stones (not sure of the #s)

i'm not sure any LW can match these yet.

My argument was mainly for people saying LWs should go to worlds just for the sake of having a LW there. Unless a LW is as strong as a HW, they shouldn't go. What's the point in having strength levels if a weaker person gets to go to the most well known strongman show, while a stronger person sits at home. Isn't that the whole point of the contest?

[Adam Keep]

Even if you lower the numbers to a 360 log and an 800 deadlift, I'm not sure of any lw pros who can do that. I think it's fair to say that a lot of the US hw pros can put up those numbers.

Thing is that log and deadlift are only two events. There are plenty more events where a LW can do pretty well against the heavies. I know that Danny Andersson from Sweeded does well in his country against the big guys. He is ranked 4th overall last time I talked to him. Janne Hartikainen (sp) from Finland is also a top ranked guy there overall and he is a LW. We all know how competitive Finland is in strongman so that is certainly a feat. I know it would be nearly impossible for a LW to win the WSM, but I could see some of them doing pretty good. I mean the Ukrainian guy weighs almost 260 I think and cuts to 231 for contests. He could do well for sure.

[Zach Snyder]

I agree on the "manning up" comment. I think that anyone who is competing in this crazy sport deserves respect.

I know Chad, and there is no way that he is disrespectful to LW amatures or LW pros. I think a lot of people are looking too much into one particular sentence and missing the general message.

[Matt Wanat]

Thing is that log and deadlift are only two events. There are plenty more events where a LW can do pretty well against the heavies. I know that Danny Andersson from Sweeded does well in his country against the big guys. He is ranked 4th overall last time I talked to him. Janne Hartikainen (sp) from Finland is also a top ranked guy there overall and he is a LW. We all know how competitive Finland is in strongman so that is certainly a feat. I know it would be nearly impossible for a LW to win the WSM, but I could see some of them doing pretty good. I mean the Ukrainian guy weighs almost 260 I think and cuts to 231 for contests. He could do well for sure.

I agree completely.

[Johnathon Conner]

Seriously are my posts invisible?

I don’t see what the argument is about, EVERYONE regardless of weight can enter a contest and possible become a HW pro. If you can’t beat the HW ams why do you deserve a shot at HW pros???? I feel like grade school, no bulling children everyone is the same and no one is special. I am tired of it. Stop your whining either go pro as a HW or find a new sport.

I don’t like weight classes. Sorry, if I am heavier and win so be it. Get heavier and match my numbers!

Am I usually one of the heavier athletes? Yes! Do I always win? No. The strongest will win regardless of weight! What is wrong with going threw the same steps I had to go threw to become a pro!

Just as I am sure the light weights get mad about always being considered weaker I get really mad when people say the only reason I am as strong is because of my weight.

Instead of arguing over what the scale says why don’t we focus on contest results!

[Scott Porter]

Just so my earlier posts aren't misinterpreted...

I agree that the LW's don't belong at worlds, at least the ASC guys. We aren't on the same level as Ortmayer, Shaw, Nee, Bergmann, Poundstone, Ostlund, etc. But as Adam Keep eluded to, there are some really freaky strong world LW guys who could compete.

And yes they should have to qualify.

My point is I could design a contest with event and weights (relatively heavy) where LW's could hang with the HW's and even beat them on events. The gaining weight thing and "manning up" thing was just a stupid comment that sparked my replying to this thread.

Did anybody see Flordia Pro show where Blake and Kaifus beat many of the HW Pros on the block carry and anchor chain drag medley? That's just one example.

[dcarroll]

Great post Johnathon, reminds me of a comment Eddie Pengally made to Andy Kerr(sorry guys going back to some early 80s pl'ing here). Eddie was 132-148'er, Andy was a Super, representing Britain. Anyway, Eddie says to Andy, "If I weighed as much as you I'd lift twice as much", Andy responded "well if I was your size, I'd lift twice as much because I'd only have to lift it half as high". And round and round it goes. I see both sides of this discussion, but I think it got a little off track. Should a light weight be allowed to compete at WSM?, yes if he qualified, pretty simple. Are there lt wts that can hang with top hvys?, yes, but that's not the original question. People want to see the Elephants, that's just the way it is and always has been. No matter how impressive any lt wt or lt'er hvy wt is people want to see huge people doing the rediculous(again, it has nothing to do with the ability of the lt'er competitor). For what it's worth here is a comparison that I was personally involved with. In 91' I was guest lifting at one of our local novis meets here in California. My plan was to qualify for Nats at 220. I think my opener was 622 in the sqt, no problem. The crowd really enjoyed it. A buddy of mine comes out to do the same weight, the only thing is Leo weighs close to 400lbs( he was new to lifting and this was a big sqt for him at this time). So what happens? the crowd goes bonkers, I'm serious, and I have to tell you, Leo looked cool up there. I mean he looked huge up there on the stage. He could of had 220 on his back and he would of had those people going nuts. Anyway, got a little nastalgic there for a minute. Hope you get the point.

[D.J. Satterfield]

are you saying weech can't load a 400? or was he so beat up from the competition that he didn't have the strength left?

heck..there were 500lb stone loaders at MSG a couple months ago, but nobody loaded the entire series which end at 420.


Also, does competiting as a HW allow the LW to keep their pro card?

Yes, they keep their LW card. Like I stated earlier, it would be possible to obtain a LW & HW Pro card.

[Barry Perkins]

Just so my earlier posts aren't misinterpreted...

I agree that the LW's don't belong at worlds, at least the ASC guys. We aren't on the same level as Ortmayer, Shaw, Nee, Bergmann, Poundstone, Ostlund, etc. But as Adam Keep eluded to, there are some really freaky strong world LW guys who could compete.

And yes they should have to qualify.

My point is I could design a contest with event and weights (relatively heavy) where LW's could hang with the HW's and even beat them on events. The gaining weight thing and "manning up" thing was just a stupid comment that sparked my replying to this thread.

Did anybody see Flordia Pro show where Blake and Kaifus beat many of the HW Pros on the block carry and anchor chain drag medley? That's just one example.

along this same note...
one of our local contests Graham B puts on twice a year is relatively heavy...and I think the light weights are freakishly strong...while we are doing a 820lbs yoke...there's is sooo much lighter at 770lbs (note sarcasm) ...so the difference between the lights and heavies is 50 lbs....farmers is the same... 330 and LW ..300...

I've never underestimated a light weight....i've seen them blaze through a 770lbs yoke and scream with 300lbs farmers...and keep in mind these weights are for the 200's as well as the 231's....

and to be honest...seeing a guy that weighs 180lbs press a 220lbs log...is very impressive to me...that's like me doing a 360 log...
just my two cents

[Mike Landrich]

Jouko Ahola was great at ~260.


What weights were used competition back then? He won the competition when it lighter and faster than it is today, although it is still a relatively light contest. We have had threads before about how light the contest used to be. Why can't we accept that the winners back then had to have different physical strengths than they do now?

If a LW were dominant enough to be competitive at WSM, he should be able to compete in his own country's championship and win his spot. If he can't win there, he surely won't win the Big Show.





so putting a LW with the same streangth as a heavy and no desire to be a HW doesnt deserve to go to wsm beacause he is not a fat ass????


If the LW had the same strength as a HW, he could compete against the heavies. If he chooses to compete in the lighter division to compete against supposedly easier competition, he cannot be declared the stronger of the 2. One of the guys I train with weighs 225-230 and only competes as a HW. He is dominant as a HW, except in the pressing events. Any LW, especially those who weigh 231+ and have to cut to make weight, could do the same thing. So long as they cut weight and compete as LWs, THEY ARE SHORTING THEMSELVES of the chance to beat the big boys. To come on any forum and say they deserve special treatment is saying that they can't hold their own against the HWs, so they need to be treated differently. Give all Strongmen the respect they deserve and let them earn their place in the hierarchy.

As for the last part of your statement. That is ignorant. You're saying HW Strongmen are fat @$$es? Get real, some are (me), but most are not. Get a perspective and think about what you post.

[Pierre Suter]

There’s no way a LW can compete with guys like Derek, Travis, and Phil, so there’s no point in sending one to WSM. Still, that doesn’t mean there’s “no point” to having the LW class.

Strongman has come a long way from being a freak show / circus act type event towards being a legitimate sport. The addition of weight classes is one step in that evolution. Legit sports like boxing, wrestling, MMA, and Olympic lifting not only have separate weight classes, but the lighter classes are usually better to watch because they have the most skilled and conditioned athletes. Ask a true weightlifting fan who is the greatest of all time and they’ll just as likely say Dimas or Suleymanoglu as they will Alexeev even though Alexeev lifted a lot more weight. As strongman continues to grow, I think you’ll see the LW classes get more attention and respect.

[Eric Todd]

The fact of the matter is, WSM is a TV show aimed at making its owners money. If they thought it would be in their best interest financially to have a LW competitor or 2 competing in it, Im sure they would have them.

Some Lightweights can compete with the heavies, some cannot. Some heavyweights can compete with the lights, some can not. Some strongmen are stronger than others, and they inherently win the contests. Everyone that steps up to bat gets my respect, unless they do more talking than doing.
ET

[anton axelsson]

What weights were used competition back then? He won the competition when it lighter and faster than it is today, although it is still a relatively light contest. We have had threads before about how light the contest used to be. Why can't we accept that the winners back then had to have different physical strengths than they do now?

If a LW were dominant enough to be competitive at WSM, he should be able to compete in his own country's championship and win his spot. If he can't win there, he surely won't win the Big Show.






If the LW had the same strength as a HW, he could compete against the heavies. If he chooses to compete in the lighter division to compete against supposedly easier competition, he cannot be declared the stronger of the 2. One of the guys I train with weighs 225-230 and only competes as a HW. He is dominant as a HW, except in the pressing events. Any LW, especially those who weigh 231+ and have to cut to make weight, could do the same thing. So long as they cut weight and compete as LWs, THEY ARE SHORTING THEMSELVES of the chance to beat the big boys. To come on any forum and say they deserve special treatment is saying that they can't hold their own against the HWs, so they need to be treated differently. Give all Strongmen the respect they deserve and let them earn their place in the hierarchy.

As for the last part of your statement. That is ignorant. You're saying HW Strongmen are fat @$$es? Get real, some are (me), but most are not. Get a perspective and think about what you post.

exscuse me i have never said that LW cant hold there own and said thay deserve any special treatment so get your dam facts strait man.. and to say that im ignorant for saying HW are fat asses you just tottaly contardicted yourself and admited you were most heavys i know both from the states and iceland take pried in there fatness so should you...
and i have never said that a LW shouldnt earn his way and have to qualifie for the WSM nor would ever exspect him not to... what im saying is that it would be nice to see some of us skinny guys qualifie...

[Mike Landrich]

what im saying is that it would be nice to see some of us skinny guys qualifie...

Which is what we've all said. LWs qualifying would be great. The LW champ getting in without beating a single HW is not qualifying, it's getting special treatment. But making the fat @$$ comment was just plain insulting to those HWs who aren't.

This whole thread reminds me of the time the reporter asked Martina Navratilova if she thought she could beat Ivan Lendl at tennis, since she was the best woman in the world. Her response was honest and blunt. I'll paraphrase it "No. Men are better athlets. There are 100 or more who could beat me". In Strongman, the best HWs in the world will beat the best LWs the vast majority of the time, unless a contest is extremely light.

You need to get your emotions under control. You are getting too worked up over a simple debate that doesn't affect you, me or the vast majority of the members of the board (top LW pros excepted).

[anton axelsson]

Which is what we've all said. LWs qualifying would be great. The LW champ getting in without beating a single HW is not qualifying, it's getting special treatment. But making the fat @$$ comment was just plain insulting to those HWs who aren't.

This whole thread reminds me of the time the reporter asked Martina Navratilova if she thought she could beat Ivan Lendl at tennis, since she was the best woman in the world. Her response was honest and blunt. I'll paraphrase it "No. Men are better athlets. There are 100 or more who could beat me". In Strongman, the best HWs in the world will beat the best LWs the vast majority of the time, unless a contest is extremely light.

You need to get your emotions under control. You are getting too worked up over a simple debate that doesn't affect you, me or the vast majority of the members of the board (top LW pros excepted).

and now i need to get my emotions under control.. and ofcourse the debate affects me it affects as us all..and strikes a good debate whether LW are good enough for the WSM and can qualifie.and now to say that my emotions are out of control.im insulted lol get real man it was a comment ment neither as an insult or to hurt ur feelings sorry i called you fat

[Mike Landrich]

sorry i called you fat

No need to apologize to me. I called me fat. You just repeated it. I thought the insult was to the lean HWs, like Kevin Nee, Marius, etc.

[Jay Hagadorn]

Maybe it would be more productive to quit debating as to if LW strongmen are as good or better than HW strongmen and start training, eh? You aren't going to grow stronger bangin' on that keyboard...;)

[Billy Wolt]

You aren't going to grow stronger bangin' on that keyboard...;)

hand strength?

[Adam Keep]

hand strength?

OOOOooooohhh strength training comeback! BURN!

[anton axelsson]

No need to apologize to me. I called me fat. You just repeated it. I thought the insult was to the lean HWs, like Kevin Nee, Marius, etc.

it was never ment as an insult mike lots of HW take pride in their fatness i know i would man it is a word that ill repeat many times but no insults were ment

[chad coy]

"""As far as a LW PRO getting invited to the WSM.....WHY? People go to the zoo to see the big game...not the petting zoo to see something they could see at the fair. Man up eat and grow......Jouko was 264 and without his boots no taller than me( 5'11")....I have competed with the best and weighed avg. 260...for 11 years....it can be done..."""

To put what I said in context.....WSM is a TV SHOW.....Entertainment......the viewers want to see freaks...sorry but a 105 kilo guy can be super freaky, but not a freak on the TV screen......the petting zoo comment was a paraphrase of Douglas Edmunds( he said that to me in 2001).

Man Up eat and grow...please! I never meant any disrespect to the LW guys...any one that has the balls to step on "any" field of sport has my respect. Trust me there have been times promoters would not give me my shirt cause I was told I was too small to be a Pro.
Magnus Ver once said I needed to man up and eat....if a LW PRO wants to go to WSM....HE WILL NEED TO EAT TO GROW TO 265.........as far as being un healthy.....don't be a fat ass......Bergmann manned up and ate...worked pretty good for him!
There was never any DISSING of the LW PRO's or anyone for that manner.

Steve Trippe...""I can promise that all the LW pro's have done just as much "manning up" as you""".....since you want to call me out...I have been in this sport since 1994....I have done 67 Shows...promoted 38( including the 2001 NATIONALS/ASM)....qualified for 10 and done 8 ASM...I could go on, but the LW Pro class is only been here since 2004...AGAIN for those that have their panties in a WAD( sorry ladies) I am not disrespecting any LW PRO or their contributions to the sport.

PORTER
What's funny and very ironic about this comment...
..is that Chad Coy is a HW Pro trying to go LW Pro. What? Couldn't hang with the HW's? Can't "man up" anymore?
I'm sorry but his comment is absolutely ridiculous. A lot of LW's go about 250, not everyone has the genetics or desire to be 300 (and sometimes more unhealthy). In a lot of cases 250 lb. guys eat as much or possibly more than 300 lb. guys and the issue of "man up" I won't even address.

First off...alot of LW go around 250...then how hard would it be to gain 15...if you want to go to WSM...its pretty simple eat...get bigger...win a HW CARD...GENES......I never said be 300 and unhealthy.....I have explained MAN UP......

NOW IF YOU WANT TO ASK IF I CAN STILL MAN UP....I am making a choice to try something different...now on the other hand if you are calling me out personally I ACCEPT......

[D.J. Satterfield]

Wow, I think everyone needs a big group hug. :)

[Barry Perkins]

i second that group hug.....
we need to pass out warm fuzzies....


and I think Chad and Scott should run laps holdin' hands.... ;)

[Matt Parkes]

than again, if they let you in they will let anyone...ummm nevermind!

what up MATTY! :xo:

Et Tu Justin. First I get ripped for 2 days by Paul Ohl and now one of my southern brothers feels the need to take his shot. I'm going to bed and cry myself to sleep on my larger HW pillow!

[anton axelsson]

"""As far as a LW PRO getting invited to the WSM.....WHY? People go to the zoo to see the big game...not the petting zoo to see something they could see at the fair. Man up eat and grow......Jouko was 264 and without his boots no taller than me( 5'11")....I have competed with the best and weighed avg. 260...for 11 years....it can be done..."""

To put what I said in context.....WSM is a TV SHOW.....Entertainment......the viewers want to see freaks...sorry but a 105 kilo guy can be super freaky, but not a freak on the TV screen......the petting zoo comment was a paraphrase of Douglas Edmunds( he said that to me in 2001).

Man Up eat and grow...please! I never meant any disrespect to the LW guys...any one that has the balls to step on "any" field of sport has my respect. Trust me there have been times promoters would not give me my shirt cause I was told I was too small to be a Pro.
Magnus Ver once said I needed to man up and eat....if a LW PRO wants to go to WSM....HE WILL NEED TO EAT TO GROW TO 265.........as far as being un healthy.....don't be a fat ass......Bergmann manned up and ate...worked pretty good for him!
There was never any DISSING of the LW PRO's or anyone for that manner.

Steve Trippe...""I can promise that all the LW pro's have done just as much "manning up" as you""".....since you want to call me out...I have been in this sport since 1994....I have done 67 Shows...promoted 38( including the 2001 NATIONALS/ASM)....qualified for 10 and done 8 ASM...I could go on, but the LW Pro class is only been here since 2004...AGAIN for those that have their panties in a WAD( sorry ladies) I am not disrespecting any LW PRO or their contributions to the sport.

PORTER
What's funny and very ironic about this comment...
..is that Chad Coy is a HW Pro trying to go LW Pro. What? Couldn't hang with the HW's? Can't "man up" anymore?
I'm sorry but his comment is absolutely ridiculous. A lot of LW's go about 250, not everyone has the genetics or desire to be 300 (and sometimes more unhealthy). In a lot of cases 250 lb. guys eat as much or possibly more than 300 lb. guys and the issue of "man up" I won't even address.

First off...alot of LW go around 250...then how hard would it be to gain 15...if you want to go to WSM...its pretty simple eat...get bigger...win a HW CARD...GENES......I never said be 300 and unhealthy.....I have explained MAN UP......

NOW IF YOU WANT TO ASK IF I CAN STILL MAN UP....I am making a choice to try something different...now on the other hand if you are calling me out personally I ACCEPT......

chad you will heer that alot from the icelandic guys i know what that means when thay say that ive been there

[Ryan Carey]

Ohh I would love to see Mr. Coy and Mr. Porter do battle that would be :KD:

Might I add you guys could compete at The Fresno Platinum show, Chads Central USA show, An AZ desert contest showdown or possibly 105k Pro nationals this next year... :D