question on sealing a stone

[scott brockelman]

I recently had a new stone made when they were doing some concrete work at my house, they just poured excess concrete in the mold. I have sealed it 3 times and it still puts off concrete dust and is pretty slick. When using tacky it just pulls small bits of concrete off and the tacky turns hard and black and is near impossible to get off, like the concrete is mixing with it.

Did I not seal it well enough or is the concrete just crappy? any ideas what to do? I even tried smearing a thin coat of tacky on the bottom to seal off the concrete dust and the tacky is just pulling off with more concrete.

Scott

[Paul Neuhaus]

I recently had a new stone made when they were doing some concrete work at my house, they just poured excess concrete in the mold. I have sealed it 3 times and it still puts off concrete dust and is pretty slick. When using tacky it just pulls small bits of concrete off and the tacky turns hard and black and is near impossible to get off, like the concrete is mixing with it.

Did I not seal it well enough or is the concrete just crappy? any ideas what to do? I even tried smearing a thin coat of tacky on the bottom to seal off the concrete dust and the tacky is just pulling off with more concrete.

Scott
When did you pour it in the mould, and when did you seal it? It should've been sealed within a couple hours after pouring it.

[Ryan Wells]

Paul - did you mean a couple of hours after removing the mold?

Did the overnight temp drop down below 30F on one of the days following the pour? I've had the temp drop on me on one stone and it was clearly different than the others. It had kind of an outer crust that kept wanting to crack and flake. I ended up taking a sledge to it in order to recycle the lead insert.

I've sealed mine right when they come out of the mold and they all turned out fine.

What type of concrete did you use? What type of sealer are you using?

[Brandon Campbell]

did you pray to the stone gods before pouring and hold the correct ceromony during the setting process? this is what Scott porter does here in az, and our stones are simply amazingly rounds and robust.

[Eric Jett]

did you pray to the stone gods before pouring and hold the correct ceromony during the setting process? this is what Scott porter does here in az, and our stones are simply amazingly rounds and robust.

Except for the retard stone...

[Paul Neuhaus]

Paul - did you mean a couple of hours after removing the mold?

Did the overnight temp drop down below 30F on one of the days following the pour? I've had the temp drop on me on one stone and it was clearly different than the others. It had kind of an outer crust that kept wanting to crack and flake. I ended up taking a sledge to it in order to recycle the lead insert.

I've sealed mine right when they come out of the mold and they all turned out fine.

What type of concrete did you use? What type of sealer are you using?
No, I mean within a couple hours of pouring it - right away if possible, but within a couple hours at the most. And you're right about the temp. If frost gets on concrete within the 1st week, it'll be junk.

[Scott Markowitz]

Ok...maybe a dumb question...how do you seal it when it's in the mold?

[Mike Beyers]

www.mcmaster.com part number 63825T74.........works pretty well, and leaves a "grippy" surface, but it should be put on before any tacky hits the stone.

[scott brockelman]

Sounds like I did not seal it soon enough. It was probably 3-4 weeks out of the mold when I sealed it.
Mike, I will try the product you recommended. Do you think I can torch the existing tacky off and make it work?

Scott

[Paul Neuhaus]

Ok...maybe a dumb question...how do you seal it when it's in the mold?
Take the mold off. Concrete doesn't take 2 hrs to set.

Whenever a driveway is poured, after it's struck off and broomed, it doesn't take long for it to set, and then the sealer is sprayed on.

If you're pouring the stone with really wet concrete, it may take a while to set. Just keep an eye on it, and strip the mold after it sets so you can seal it.

[Andrew.Cook]

We have a couple stones that have turned out like this too. I haven't sealed any of my stones (well, one of out of the five has some epoxy on it, but that was a special case) and over time the dust settles, so to speak. If it is really bothering me I'll wipe the stone down with a wet rag a few training sessions in a row and that seems to help. As for the concrete flaking off, I'm just not sure.

[Wayne Meyer]

I don't mean to sound ignorant, but I have made (5) stones and I have never applied any sealant of any kind to my stones and I haven't had an issue with any of them.

As a matter of fact, this is the first time I have ever heard of any one applying s "sealant material" to a stone. What is the purpose of this sealant material? What is it suppose to do?

[MatthewRDeLancey]

Take the mold off. Concrete doesn't take 2 hrs to set.

Whenever a driveway is poured, after it's struck off and broomed, it doesn't take long for it to set, and then the sealer is sprayed on.

If you're pouring the stone with really wet concrete, it may take a while to set. Just keep an eye on it, and strip the mold after it sets so you can seal it.


Have you ever made a stone? You can't pull the stone out for atleast 48 hours. Stones are different than flat concrete. The fact that all of that concrete is a giant ball takes longer to set. Anyway, we never seal our stones and they are just fine.

[Ryan Wells]

Have you ever made a stone? You can't pull the stone out for atleast 48 hours. Stones are different than flat concrete. The fact that all of that concrete is a giant ball takes longer to set. Anyway, we never seal our stones and they are just fine.
Yeah, exactly...I was gonna say.

Anyway, I've left mine in the molds for 3-4 days and they came out sweet. I cracked one out just shy of 48 hours and it was green and was the consistency of clay with a milky outer surface.

I think sealing them in the colder states may be the issue. We are in Michigan and I have one stone, a 225er that I didn't seal and it sweats and is slick all winter long. The others that were sealed don't sweat. In the summer months there isn't a difference.

[MatthewRDeLancey]

Yeah, exactly...I was gonna say.

Anyway, I've left mine in the molds for 3-4 days and they came out sweet. I cracked one out just shy of 48 hours and it was green and was the consistency of clay with a milky outer surface.

I think sealing them in the colder states may be the issue. We are in Michigan and I have one stone, a 225er that I didn't seal and it sweats and is slick all winter long. The others that were sealed don't sweat. In the summer months there isn't a difference.

Maybe it has the flu :B:

[Mark Kimener]

I'm glad this thread came up. I just made a stone a few weeks ago, and tried to load it on friday and had the same problem as Scott. I tried brushing and such, but it was still really slick and dusty. I never put any seal on it, so I think I'm gonna try some of that epoxy on it. Thanks.

Oh yeah any other suggestions are welcomed.

[MatthewRDeLancey]

I'm glad this thread came up. I just made a stone a few weeks ago, and tried to load it on friday and had the same problem as Scott. I tried brushing and such, but it was still really slick and dusty. I never put any seal on it, so I think I'm gonna try some of that epoxy on it. Thanks.

Oh yeah any other suggestions are welcomed.

Our stones are usually dusty the first couple times we use them. Then they are fine. There will be a layer of dust on them when you first start using them.

[Wayne Meyer]

Have you ever made a stone? You can't pull the stone out for atleast 48 hours. Stones are different than flat concrete. The fact that all of that concrete is a giant ball takes longer to set. Anyway, we never seal our stones and they are just fine.

Matt -
You are spot on accurate! Stones can not be compared to flat concrete. I leave my stones in the mold for (7) days after pouring. I don't think that (7) days is necessarily required but I like to lean on the side of caution. Slaters recommends not using the sones for I beleive (7) days after pouring.

[MatthewRDeLancey]

Matt -
You are spot on accurate! Stones can not be compared to flat concrete. I leave my stones in the mold for (7) days after pouring. I don't think that (7) days is necessarily required but I like to side of the side of caution. Slaters recommends not using the sones for I beleive (7) days after pouring.

It might even be 10 days they recommend. gotta look it up.

[Mark Kimener]

Thanks Matt, I had a feeling that was the case. It doesn't help that its a heavy stone as well.

[MatthewRDeLancey]

Thanks Matt, I had a feeling that was the case. It doesn't help that its a heavy stone as well.

The bigger the stone the longer it takes to set. Just be patient with it. I never rush the process and we have 17 really nice stones

[Paul Neuhaus]

Have you ever made a stone? You can't pull the stone out for atleast 48 hours. Stones are different than flat concrete. The fact that all of that concrete is a giant ball takes longer to set. Anyway, we never seal our stones and they are just fine.
You won't have that issue if you add calcium chloride to your mix. I used to work at a concrete plant, so I had easy access.

[Wayne Meyer]

You won't have that issue if you add calcium chloride to your mix. I used to work at a concrete plant, so I had easy access.

Paul -
Where does some one get calcium chloride? And what does it do? Lastly, how much does is cost? I have never heard of it so I am clueless as to what it does.....

[MatthewRDeLancey]

You won't have that issue if you add calcium chloride to your mix. I used to work at a concrete plant, so I had easy access.

Well, that's all and good but I'm happy with the stones we make and am sticking to the process we've mastered. Good luck to you with your stone.

[Steve Trippe]

You won't have that issue if you add calcium chloride to your mix. I used to work at a concrete plant, so I had easy access.

That was a pretty big "IF" to leave out till now...

Other than quick setting, is there any reason to add calcium chloride to the mix? I've never heard of this done, but I've only made one stone (though I didn't have any of the problems you guys are talking about).

[Paul Neuhaus]

Other than quick setting, is there any reason to add calcium chloride to the mix? I've never heard of this done, but I've only made one stone (though I didn't have any of the problems you guys are talking about).

Quick setting is really the only reason it's used. If you're making stones in cold temps, CC is almost a must to ensure that it sets and cures in a timely manner.

[Paul Neuhaus]

Paul -
Where does some one get calcium chloride? And what does it do? Lastly, how much does is cost? I have never heard of it so I am clueless as to what it does.....

Go to any concrete supply company and ask as prices vary. As far as what it does, without getting all scientific, it makes the concrete set faster, which is very important in cold temps. The reason for this is that concrete generates it's own heat to make it set and cure. But, if it's really cold in your garage, the concrete won't generate enough heat on its own.

[Patrick McGuffin]

I hear its best to seal stones in blood.

[Dan Eberhardt]

I hear its best to seal stones in blood.

The blood from your forearms as you tear through another rep?

[jon hergert]

i suspect the mix design for the concrete is the major culprit for the stone dusting.

Concrete from a ready mix truck for flatwork or footings would normally just be a 5 sack or perhaps a 5.5 sack mix, around 2,500 psi. Good enough for walking on, not so good for abuse that a stone gets.

Quickrete 5000, available in bags is 5,000 psi, and fiber reinforced, much better choice for a stone. Doesn't tend to dust or chip nearly as much. Never had any issues with dusting or chipping on any of the Quickrete stones that I have poured.

Incidently, most ready mix in bags is 2,500 psi. It is well worth it to spend the extra $1 or 2 per bag for the good stuff.

[MatthewRDeLancey]

The 80lb bags of quickcrete work great.

[Ryan Wells]

i suspect the mix design for the concrete is the major culprit for the stone dusting.

Concrete from a ready mix truck for flatwork or footings would normally just be a 5 sack or perhaps a 5.5 sack mix, around 2,500 psi. Good enough for walking on, not so good for abuse that a stone gets.

Quickrete 5000, available in bags is 5,000 psi, and fiber reinforced, much better choice for a stone. Doesn't tend to dust or chip nearly as much. Never had any issues with dusting or chipping on any of the Quickrete stones that I have poured.

Incidently, most ready mix in bags is 2,500 psi. It is well worth it to spend the extra $1 or 2 per bag for the good stuff.
Just my 2 cents here:

We poured a couple with the Q5000 and they both came in 15-20lbs on the light side. The "Q" has more aggregate (small stones), as opposed to the regular quickrete, which has more sand. We poured the rest of the stones with regular 80lb quickrete and the weight is right on and I think they are nicer. In fact, I have had only one stone get a hairline crack down the middle and it was a 260 poured with Q5000.

I don't think the difference in PSI is a huge deal as long as you unload your stones with tires or on double layer stall mat with plywood underneath.

[Benjamin Kieren]

Go to any concrete supply company and ask as prices vary. As far as what it does, without getting all scientific, it makes the concrete set faster, which is very important in cold temps. The reason for this is that concrete generates it's own heat to make it set and cure. But, if it's really cold in your garage, the concrete won't generate enough heat on its own.

Hey Paul. I plan on making another stone during the winter season, so how much of this calcium chloride do I need to mix in with the stone? And how long should I let it cure for when its cold outside. Well, you know how cold it gets in Wisconsin. Also, I am going to be using quikrete 5000 in a Slater Mold if that makes a difference.

[Barry Perkins]

i suspect the mix design for the concrete is the major culprit for the stone dusting.

Concrete from a ready mix truck for flatwork or footings would normally just be a 5 sack or perhaps a 5.5 sack mix, around 2,500 psi. Good enough for walking on, not so good for abuse that a stone gets.

Quickrete 5000, available in bags is 5,000 psi, and fiber reinforced, much better choice for a stone. Doesn't tend to dust or chip nearly as much. Never had any issues with dusting or chipping on any of the Quickrete stones that I have poured.

Incidently, most ready mix in bags is 2,500 psi. It is well worth it to spend the extra $1 or 2 per bag for the good stuff.

yeh Jon this is what I use...the higher cement ratio is a big plus..
as for quick setting..the stone puts off a butt load of heat during the curing process..and really there is no reason for quick setting materials...

as for sealing or not sealing..I think some of you got lucky not sealing..what makes it dusty is :

bad mix, too high water to cement ratio...(you put in too much water)..when pouring a stone..water should not "ooze" from the top...

second... once it's popped from the mold..if the surface of the stone dries too quickly...and is not 90% cured ..the outer thin layer will dry too quickly making it brittle.

for a good fail safe good stone consistantly...
rich mix (Q5000) with low water
stay in the mold for a few days
as soon as it is released from the mold add several coats of sealer...
don't use the ston for at least 3-4 weeks from popping it from the mold..

YES YES YES...i know I know...we've all made stones and used them sooner..and they've worked..fine...yes yes yes...we all have not sealed stones and they have been fine...

I'm just saying ..for a "fail safe" ...consistant good stone....that is what I would suggest..
I've been in the concrete design industry for several years..and have learned alot about the characterisitics of concrete, concrete designs, the hydration process...etc..

just some thoughts...
barry

[Wayne Meyer]

Has anyone used portland cement? I have used the Quickcrete 5000 before and didn't care for it, it had small stones called aggregate inside of it. I thought the stones being very porous would be too light.

I have used portland cement with my stones and have had no problem what so ever. I don't know what the psi is, but I am droping these stones all the time on plywood and haven't had any issue.

[Ryan Wells]

Has anyone used portland cement? I have used the Quickcrete 5000 before and didn't care for it, it had small stones called aggregate inside of it. I thought the stones being very porous would be too light.

I have used portland cement with my stones and have had no problem what so ever. I don't know what the psi is, but I am droping these stones all the time on plywood and haven't had any issue.
That's interesting. I know that cement is an ingredient of concrete. I've always understood that you would want to add something like aggregate to the Portland cement to add strength to your "mix". I know concrete relies on a combination of tensile and compression strength (which is why PSI rating is more important in slabs requiring more tensile strength). That is awesome that you haven't had any issues. Was your mix pretty sandy? straight Portland is probably safe in a sphere, but wouldn't expect it not to crack in a slab without adding something to it.

[Barry Perkins]

Has anyone used portland cement? I have used the Quickcrete 5000 before and didn't care for it, it had small stones called aggregate inside of it. I thought the stones being very porous would be too light.

I have used portland cement with my stones and have had no problem what so ever. I don't know what the psi is, but I am droping these stones all the time on plywood and haven't had any issue.


Ok...CONCRETE 101...

Concrete is a material consisting of 3 major products (ingredients)
Cement
Sand
Gravel

and usually in a 1:2:3 ratio...for a baseline...

Portland Cement is a product used in concrete. Now..I am assuming you are taking Portland Cement, mixing it with sand and aggregate (stones) then water and using that mixture...

pourous stones don't necessarily make a stone light...whatever is the total weight of products/materials you put in a stone will be the total weight of the stone when complete...
and NO..the water does not "evaporate" it goes through a chemical change called Hydration...the molecules are still in there..just in a different manner..so if you put in 16lbs of water (roughly 2 gallons) then you've added 16lbs of weight...

now..I'm curious about this Portland mix you are using Wayne..sounds pretty good...oh..please tell...how are you using the Portland..

[Wayne Meyer]

Ok...CONCRETE 101...

Concrete is a material consisting of 3 major products (ingredients)
Cement
Sand
Gravel

and usually in a 1:2:3 ratio...for a baseline...

Portland Cement is a product used in concrete. Now..I am assuming you are taking Portland Cement, mixing it with sand and aggregate (stones) then water and using that mixture...

pourous stones don't necessarily make a stone light...whatever is the total weight of products/materials you put in a stone will be the total weight of the stone when complete...
and NO..the water does not "evaporate" it goes through a chemical change called Hydration...the molecules are still in there..just in a different manner..so if you put in 16lbs of water (roughly 2 gallons) then you've added 16lbs of weight...

now..I'm curious about this Portland mix you are using Wayne..sounds pretty good...oh..please tell...how are you using the Portland..

Barry -
Yes I am using Portland cement. I buy it in 94lbs. bags, just add water and mix very well. I have used concrete and I think portland cement mixes better and the surfaces when done are pretty smooth and they bind very well with tacky.

[Joshua Davis]

I've "re-moistened" a stone while curing, since the stone pulls away from the mold a bit after a day or so, I just pour some water into the pour hole to keep the mix from curing too quickly. The times I did this I ended up with a nice stone that didn't flake very much at all.

We don't have to worry much about cold pours down here. I'm sure this tactic would have to be performed in someone's garage/laundry room if you were in a cold weather area.

[Barry Perkins]

Barry -
Yes I am using Portland cement. I buy it in 94lbs. bags, just add water and mix very well. I have used concrete and I think portland cement mixes better and the surfaces when done are pretty smooth and they bind very well with tacky.

ok..now is this plain portland cement? with no sand? It isn't portland cement "Mortar" mix is it?

I know if you mix plain portland cement (which is like powder, dust like) with water..it's like a mud..but it shrinks really bad..
this is intrigueing me...

cool...

[Wayne Meyer]

ok..now is this plain portland cement? with no sand? It isn't portland cement "Mortar" mix is it?

I know if you mix plain portland cement (which is like powder, dust like) with water..it's like a mud..but it shrinks really bad..
this is intrigueing me...

cool...

Barry -
Just plain old Portland Cement, no mortar. And yes when mixed its like very, very heavy mud. I make mine on the heavy side. Some shrinkage occurs when it sets up. Makes some nice stones however...

[Barry Perkins]

wow...i'll have to try that some time...very cool...

[Benjamin Kieren]

When you guys are creating these "mixtures" are you doing them by hand??? Im getting ready to make another stone and im just gonna mix it by hand. I know its a lot easier to use a cement mixer, but i'd rather just do a half ass job in my garage. So when I mix it by hand, am I going to have a lighter stone cuz the machine works better and can mix a higher concentration of cement to water?

[Barry Perkins]

When you guys are creating these "mixtures" are you doing them by hand??? Im getting ready to make another stone and im just gonna mix it by hand. I know its a lot easier to use a cement mixer, but i'd rather just do a half ass job in my garage. So when I mix it by hand, am I going to have a lighter stone cuz the machine works better and can mix a higher concentration of cement to water?

by hand is what most do....you control how much cement you use...