Ironmind - Ervin Katona bicep tear

[Ryan Bracewell]

http://www.ironmind.com/ironcms/morenewsv6.php?id=2984#2984

After reading this, I am left wondering again whether its wise to train Bi's. I typically train bi's heavy once a week for tendon strength, but maybe its not the best idea.

[AndrewPalmer]

http://www.ironmind.com/ironcms/morenewsv6.php?id=2984#2984

After reading this, I am left wondering again whether its wise to train Bi's. I typically train bi's heavy once a week for tendon strength, but maybe its not the best idea.

I only train biceps directly once every few months. I figure that rows, cleans, and stones do plenty for the tendon strength but don't artificially increase the bicep muscle's size/strength. My hope is that the bicep muscle will always be weaker than the tendons, and never rupture.

[Andrew.Cook]

That is a bummer. Ervin impressed the heck out of me at the Arnold (I know, he wasn't in the top three). Hate to see these kinds of injuries.

I'm not certain that zero direct bicep work is ideal either. The article is right that our biceps do take a heavy beating during event work, so I think the best compliment to that heavy training is higher rep, lighter weight work to support increased blood flow and recovery. Like WSBB guys do high rep sets of band triceps after heavy bench, maybe the best tactic is to do band bicep work post event work?

[Corey DuCharme]

That is a bummer. Ervin impressed the heck out of me at the Arnold (I know, he wasn't in the top three). Hate to see these kinds of injuries.

His training leading up to the Arnold was amazing too. He has some serious brute strength, hope he heals up fast.

I think I've said this a few times before, and I'm not an expert, but the biceps need to be stretched to stay healthy. That would probably best be done with a moderate curl weight focusing on full elbow extension to the point of intensely flexing the triceps.

[DaneGarreau]

I'm going to post this and knock on wood at the same time.....

I never, ever, ever do any kind of direct bicep work and I have also never even felt the slightest hint of a bicep pull/tear.

My biceps seem to stay plenty strong from all the tire flips/atlas stones/keg carries/etc. and I just have never felt the need for direct bicep work.

So, I might be an anomoly but I really feel like not doing any direct bicep work has helped me.

[Derek Poundstone]

Here we go, another Strongman tears his bicept and everyone runs for ths hills! :LOL:

First off I wish Ervin the best and I hope for a speedy recovery, he's a great athlete and all around really nice guy! Now for the nitty gritty, there is no one factor that leads to a bicept tear. It takes a tone of force to tear a bicept tendon off the bone and I feel its usually a freak accident. Look at the guys in the past that have torn their bicepts, they've varied from SM who have huge powerfull arms that train bis often to guys that never train their arms. If this is the excuse anyone wants to not train their arms, so be it. My knees hurt also, should I not squat anymore as well? In the sport of Strongman, there are a few givens, one of them is that significan injury is likely, not just possible, just like crashes are a part of Nascar! Now here's my take on it; we are strongmna and are goal is to be the strongest. I specifically train every muscle group in my body to be the strongest it can be. This pays huge dividens when I compete. Take for example the dumbell press from the Arnold Classic. Because I train my bi's to be stong, I can effectively curl the weight up and let go with my support hand while the dumbell is onkly 3/4's the way up and finish curling the weight up with one arm. The reason for this, strong bi's. Now the common arguemant is either you bi's can get to strong for your connective tissue or you bis dont get enough rest if you train events and SM. I disagree! I train bicepts light and heavy and everywhere in between. My light workouts consist of curls in the 100 reps range and my heavy workouts consist of curls well over 200 lbs! The reason bis get torn so much is more the natural mechanical disadvantage of your bicpet in relation to your forearm, this mixed with SM lifts such as tire flips, stone lifting or the worst lift on the bis, deadlifting is just an accident waiting to happen! Do what you feel comfortable with but in the end, not training a muscle wont prevent injury, I feel it will only encourage it. Now of course I'm speaking about the professinal level where the weights are just getting insane. One wrong step or misque in form can be disasterous with over 400 lbs overhead or while deadlifting 900 lbs!! A measly 45 lb dumbbell curl IMO does not lead to or encourage a bicept tear when your talking about the weights used in SM!

[Steve Trippe]

In a class I took a couple years ago we examined the effect of heavy, specifically eccentric, training in relation to hamstring injuries.

While there wasn't a HUGE correlation (as many hamstring injuries are a result of poorly firing glutes, not a weakness within the hamstring itself), it was found that the exercise led to stronger muscle and tendon fibers that were less likely to tear.

Take it for what its worth, and I'd love to hear the reasoning behind this Ironmind article, but personally, I would disagree with it.

Derek also makes some good points, but I'd personally like to hear from Kevin Nee when it comes to bicep tears. While I doubt it's related to his training, I'm sure by now he's heard more advice for avoiding tears than anyone on here.

[Steve Pulcinella]

Biceps tears! Its a pandemic!

[Jay Hagadorn]

Tendons and ligaments must be strong to keep serious injuries at bay.
Proper development is, good elasticity and tensile strength; each of which help develop more power. A tendon will strengthen in unison with the muscle usually but if great increases in weight are desired they need to be targeted separately. Tendon injuries are pretty common in those who use "un-natural supplementation" while increasing muscle but not tendon strength at an accelerated rate. I am not pointing fingers at anyone; many times freak accidents occur when you are moving lots of weight.





Train tendons separately from muscle bellies in your workouts. Use partial overloads in compound movements, this is one way to accomplish this.

[JoeMYurkunas]

I am no expert but I have to agree with Derek. It's pretty rare that you get better at something by NOT doing it. I can't imagine some 60-100lbs. DB curls would be a bad idea when you plan on flipping 500-1000+ lbs. tires!

Perhaps some good old common sense should be applied. Training bceps very hard on Friday and then doing events like stones or tire flips on Saturday may not be such a great idea. Staying well hydrated would be a good move to.

[Paul F.X. Armstrong]

Apology in advance--I think the article on Manfred Hoerbel is from an old Muscle and Fitness---:)
manfred was a top strongman that did a lot of 'arm'training-
Kaz did some direct biceps work also--i remember that he thought heavy hammer curls-- in particular-- helped his pressing-
J.P.Sigmarson appeared to do a lot of direct arm work

Having said that i tore my biceps as a kid doing heavy straight bar cheat curls--:( --it was an issue of too much weight and too loose of form at too young of an age- IMO-

Paul


UNCONVENTIONAL BODYBUILDER'S DIET
"I'm presently eating 6,000-8,000 calories per day," says Manfred. "I have a very fast metabolism and if my caloric intake drops below 6,000, I start losing size.


MANFRED-SIZED ARM ROUTINE
BICEPS
SEATED INCLINE DUMBBELL CURL
"I prefer using a slight incline because it allows me to minimize any shoulder involvement," says Manfred. "I concentrate solely on good form and make my biceps work to their maximum capacity. That means starting each movement from a dead stop at the bottom and keeping the elbows stationary, curling the arm up to full biceps contraction."

THUMBS-UP ROPE CURL
"This is a great exercise for developing the biceps brachialis -the muscle that sits underneath the biceps. I've found that using a rope helps me feel the movement better simply because there's constant tension on the brachialis throughout the entire movement. Proper form is a must, as are slow, continuous burning reps."

EZ-BAR CURL
"For mass building, the EZ-bar or straight bar curl can't be beat, which makes it one of my favorites. I make sure I do a few light warm-up sets and then I go for the heavy weight. I like using a close grip on the EZ-bar."

TRICEPS
V-BAR PRESSDOWN
"This a power movement for me," Manfred says. "I take a V-bar and face away from the machine. I lean over slightly to keep the stress off the lower back. I make sure that my tendons are fully warmed before I start piling the weight on. I also make sure that my upper arms are locked into a fixed position, then I bring the bar up to chest level and down to the fully contracted locked-out position."

SEATED ONE-ARM DUMBBELL FRENCH PRESS
"This exercise does amazing things for triceps long-head growth. Very strict form is critical to get the most from the exercise. I use heavy enough weight to make the triceps burn but not cause me to use sloppy form. For the last few reps, I'll take my free hand and push the dumbbell up just enough so I can complete the rep."


MANFRED'S MASSIVE ARM SCHEDULE


EXERCISE, SETS, REPS
Biceps
1) Seated Incline
Dumbbell Curl 2 5-10
2) Thumbs-Up
Rope Curl 2 8-12
3) EZ-Bar Curl 2 5-8

Triceps
1) V-Bar
Pressdown 3 8-12
2) Seated One-Arm
Dumbbell French
Press 3 8-12

TRAINING SCHEDULE DAY A.M. P.M.
Monday Shoulders Legs Triceps
Tuesday Chest Hamstrings
Wednesday Back Biceps
Thursday Off Off

Manfred begins the next three-day training cycle on Friday, using only light weights (that is, light for Manfred!) and really has fun trying new movements.

PULL QUOTES
'To give you an idea of just how big Hoeberl's arm is, picture an average bodybuilder's thigh. Wrap a shirtsleeve around it, and that's the size of Manfred's arm!'

'I did a demonstration on a television show in Europe where I turned over 10 cars in three minutes and 20 seconds.'

'In my hunger for big arms, I thought more work and workouts were the answer. I was wrong. When it comes to massive, unbelievable arms, less is more!'

[Ryan Bracewell]

I am curious what makes Marcel think that training Bi's has anything to do with the tears. Did he train any strongmen, or compete himself?

My personal opinion is that majority of the muscle tears we hear about in strongman & powerlifting are related to one of three things. 1) muscles that are way stronger than their tendons , 2) lack of flexibility, and 3) When lifting extreme weights, shit happens

[DaneGarreau]

I am curious what makes Marcel think that training Bi's has anything to do with the tears. Did he train any strongmen, or compete himself?

My personal opinion is that majority of the muscle tears we hear about in strongman & powerlifting are related to one of three things. 1) muscles that are way stronger than their tendons , 2) lack of flexibility, and 3) When lifting extreme weights, shit happens

Also, the majority of people that I have heard of tearing biceps usually had some pretty bad tendonitis for months prior.

[D.J. Satterfield]

Tendon injuries are pretty common in those who use "un-natural supplementation" while increasing muscle but not tendon strength at an accelerated rate.


Very good point Jay, and one that needs mentioning. We need to look at the big picture and compare apples to apples.

Ryan,
I also agree with your 3 reasons, especially number 3.

[Simon_De_Vogelaere]

I think it's mainly from overtraining/not enough rest and not stretching the bicep properly after training. I see alot of people doing curls where they don't even come close to straightening their arms and keep on shortening their bicep muscles. When you pick up a weigh and lose control and your bicep gets stretched under tension to where it isn't used to it might tear.

That's my idea on bicep tears.

[Corey DuCharme]

I think it's mainly from overtraining/not enough rest and not stretching the bicep properly after training. I see alot of people doing curls where they don't even come close to straightening their arms and keep on shortening their bicep muscles. When you pick up a weigh and lose control and your bicep gets stretched under tension to where it isn't used to it might tear.

That's my idea on bicep tears.

That's what I was getting at.

Take what Steve and Jay said and combine them: Heavy negative curls with static holds every few degrees. Also, full extension at the bottom.

[Scott Markowitz]

I think it's a contagious, infectious disease. Stay away from people with biceps tears in order to keep your from tearing.

[Mathieu Bruneaux]

Does anyone know who Marcel Mostert is? Is he a credible source? When I read this the first thing I thought of is "how ridiculous is this!" For two years I had real bad forearm tendon pain and so I couldn't do very much arm training and all my lifts stunk. For the past two months, I've been able to train arms and just about all my lifts stink a lot less, especially my press. It seems odd to make such an absolute statement referencing three months worth of competition as proof.

I can’t imagine Derek winning the Worlds Strongest Man in 2009 with 16” arms. Everything works together and I can’t imagine having an unbalanced arm is going to make you less injury prone.

Popping a bicep is probably my biggest fear, especially after Dana “the mad barber from Maine” popped his, so when I do curls I extend as far as possible and hold it. When doing deadlifts I consciously relax my arms and fight the urge to curl the bar.

On a lighter note, I think everyone has missed a big reason to train arms, the GIRLS!!!!

[TEXAS STONEMAN]

Marcel has been in this sport for longer than a lot of you put together. I think he has an idea what he is talking about.
I was just speaking with him about this after Ervin tore his bicep and I think his general consensus is spot on. Just to make note, Vasyl Virastyuk has the same opinion. After Derek wrote his piece a lot of people jumped on his train, and I am not saying he is wrong, but I think we need to remember that Marcel did say how much heavy stress is put on the bi's while training the events and it doesn't make sense to train them hard twice a week. One light session is enough for most of us after heavy work on the events.
I personally think that the more you train a muscle the more you learn how to use it. In the case of tire flipping, etc., it is probably better to not know how to use the biceps...


As for the Strongmen of the past... nothing against them (a lot were stronger than the guys today) but they weren't doing anywhere near the same weight on things like Atlas Stones, tire flips, etc. And even if they did it was few and far between. Now days we do these weights at nearly every contest.

[Mathieu Bruneaux]

I meant no disrespect to Marcel, I just didn't know the name.

[Mac Smith]

Everybody is different. I don't think a blanket statement can be made for everyone. Derrick it a totally different body type than Travis so what works for Derrick might not work for Travis and vice verse, but whatever each is doing...the shit is working!!!!

I think the biggest issue would be to just train smart. If you have severe tendonitis you need to take some time off and do some rehab. If you're using unmentionables know that the muscle growth rate could outpace the tendon strengthen rate and you need to make concessions accordingly. The bottom line is simply...train smart.

[Brandon Campbell]

number one thing to prevent bicep tears is.....

Stretch, massage, and proper training. I am lucky to have a girlfriend who is scared shiznetless of this happening to me and she bi weekly stretchs and does ART on my biceps. I can tell you all right now, after she does it feels like tons of tension was let off the tendon and biceps. Just something to keep in mind.

I see less and less strongman doing proper stretching and stuff. STAY LIMBER GUYS!

[Derek Poundstone]

Marcel has been in this sport for longer than a lot of you put together. I think he has an idea what he is talking about.
I was just speaking with him about this after Ervin tore his bicep and I think his general consensus is spot on. Just to make note, Vasyl Virastyuk has the same opinion. After Derek wrote his piece a lot of people jumped on his train, and I am not saying he is wrong, but I think we need to remember that Marcel did say how much heavy stress is put on the bi's while training the events and it doesn't make sense to train them hard twice a week. One light session is enough for most of us after heavy work on the events.
I personally think that the more you train a muscle the more you learn how to use it. In the case of tire flipping, etc., it is probably better to not know how to use the biceps...


As for the Strongmen of the past... nothing against them (a lot were stronger than the guys today) but they weren't doing anywhere near the same weight on things like Atlas Stones, tire flips, etc. And even if they did it was few and far between. Now days we do these weights at nearly every contest.

I think Mac Smith summed it up best when he said we all have very different paths to the same goal. I feel it is very important to train bi's and their are quite a bit of top pros who feel the opposite, even Jesse was apposed to direct bicept training. I just feel its more a case of a freak accident then anything else. Plus I dont wanna give up the guns, the ladies like them :B: jk, at this point I feel most stongman, inclusing myself, disgust the opposite sex anyways. Funny story; while at the beach a few weeks back durring the heat heart wave we had in the North East, I actually heard a girl in a car look at me while I was walking with Kristin with my shirt off and say, "look at him, ewwwww!!!" It was awesome :)

[Vincent Dizenzo]

I tore one bicep and am working on the other. My problem is clearly inflexibility. I have such limited supination. That's why I tore my bicep deadlifting with the under grip. I partially tore the other one last summer deadlifting an axle with the under grip (strongman is stupid by the way :EB:). Well, I almost tore it again the other day on a stone (it was a 115, don't start, I got it for my wife) because the stone was so small I could not get my forearms to it and could only use my hands. Reaching under the stone I have to supinate.

So now I realize my problem is not just inflexibility, it's stupidity also. I do agree with the idea of stretching. Ii's too late for me now. At nearly 40, I'm staying on the bench where I belong.

Hey Derek, maybe that girl was saying "ewwww" because you're too lean. Girls hate abs. Good luck on Sunday. We'll be there in full force. It's Jessica's birthday. What a guy I am bringing my wife to strongman on her birthday. What can I say, I'm a giver.

[matthewvincent]

i only train Biceps...i think if I get them big enough I wont need to squat just look at Greg Valentino no body asked that guy what you squat.... get huge and stay huge...

[kenneth nowicki]

I actually heard a girl in a car look at me while I was walking with Kristin with my shirt off and say, "look at him, ewwwww!!!" It was awesome :)

Now thats the shape I want to get to, plus have little kids cry when they look at you! :M:

[Jason Alencewicz]

I think Mac Smith summed it up best when he said we all have very different paths to the same goal. I feel it is very important to train bi's and their are quite a bit of top pros who feel the opposite, even Jesse was apposed to direct bicept training. I just feel its more a case of a freak accident then anything else. Plus I dont wanna give up the guns, the ladies like them :B: jk, at this point I feel most stongman, inclusing myself, disgust the opposite sex anyways. Funny story; while at the beach a few weeks back durring the heat heart wave we had in the North East, I actually heard a girl in a car look at me while I was walking with Kristin with my shirt off and say, "look at him, ewwwww!!!" It was awesome :)

I bet that "ewww" would have turned to an "OMG !!!" quick when she found out you were the strongest man in the world :-D

[MalachiMcMullen]

Something I've noticed in quite a few bicep tear vids and from seeing other lifts from guys who have torn biceps before is that their arms are often bent. Tire flips, deadlifts, cleans, anything pulling, their arms are bent. Wouldn't that be a major contributing factor to a bicep tear during a pull?

Or is there some study done on this subject I'm missing?

[jay lyttle]

i hear eeeewwwwww from my girlfriend all the time, but i dont think its the muscles shes eeeewwwwwing at[i used to look like brad pitt!!!! i did? really i did!] bicep tears are just going to happen now and then. workout partner did it deadlifting [off bone] i had a tendon pop off on db military press [popped when i was throwing the db up to press it] it just goes with the territory

[Clint Darden]

It's terrible. I competed with Katona the week before, in Hungary. I do know that he was also down 5kg in bodyweight.

Or maybe I just took too much out of him by taking 2nd in 3 of the events :)

Stuff happens. Out of my little training crew I probably have the weakest barbell curl yet I'm half way decent at the stones.

[Kevin Cronin]

Something I've noticed in quite a few bicep tear vids and from seeing other lifts from guys who have torn biceps before is that their arms are often bent. Tire flips, deadlifts, cleans, anything pulling, their arms are bent. Wouldn't that be a major contributing factor to a bicep tear during a pull?

Or is there some study done on this subject I'm missing?
Well that's the trick. Arms arent supposed to bend on the deadlift, but they do; they're bent by necessity on stones; and tire flip they're just moving all over the place

[Garrick Daft]

Rick Freitag and I have discussed bicep tears a few times during training and elsewhere. He has torn his. Bascially he said that many bicep tears are caused by the arm being under tremendous tension and then that tension suddenly going to zero. For instance on stones, if the stone slips and the biceps are being used heavily, then a rupture of the tendon or bicep is likely to result, same with tire. During a slip, the bicep just rips itself off because all the force that the muscle is exerting to lift the stone/tire has to go somewhere when the stone/tire slips, so it just causes incredible torque on the bicep and tendon... if that area is stressed to much or weakened from overtraining then it is likely to tear from the torque. Hopefully Rick will get in this discussion and give some more insight into this.

I think that deadlift tears happen most frequently from reverse gripping the bar and more then likely result from incredible torque forces over-suppinating an inflexible/short bicep/tendon. Also DL tears result from the bicep flexing due to improper form or biceps that want to engage due to their strength overcompensating for improper form or weight that is excessively heavy.

Biceps get a lot of work in event training. High rep recovery (blood) work and tendon strengthening and flexibility exercises on a non event day should help tremendously to prevent a tear I would think.

[rickfreitag]

I know a couple ortho surgeons at my gym. One is a hand/arm micro surgeon. He fixed my bicep tear in 2004. The other is a foot/ankle surgeon. I have had extensive discussions with both about tendon rupture. Both agree that rupture is most likely to occur when the muscle/tendon lengthens and then suddenly reverses or stops with great force. This was the case for me when mine ruptured while flipping a tire at Nats in 2004. I think certain movements put the bicep in vulnerable positions where the lengthening/stretching and then reversal/or stop can be subtle or almost unnoticeable, but yet very dangerous, for example the rev hand on DL or holding a very heavy yoke with arms extended, or heavy stones, or tire.

Generally I believe a healthy bicep won't tear under these extreme conditions, even if mistakes are made. I believe the tears are usually a result of pre-existing micro tears already in the tendon/attachment. Hence, if you have tendinitis, be careful. And the more painful the tendinitis becomes the more at risk you are for rupture.

[RubenScheepers]

I´ll have to agree with Derek in this one.

I think most of the biceps tears occur when 1. the muscle is stronger then the tendons 2. just pure bad luck and some bad movement.

If you deadlift with a mixed grip and the poundages get really heavy, then there is a possibility you tear your biceps if you can´t keep your arm straight enough.

But my opinion is just make sure you train every muscle in your body to make it as strong as possible, but also make sure all the muscles get their rest.

If you train events two times a week (with heavy stones, tire flips, hand-over-hand) then is it mayble to much to train your biceps heavy and directly. Mayble some lighter work once a week is better than.

But I train events only once in two weeks, so I can use some heavy bicepswork. I do my dumbbell curls with 70´s and my barbell curls sometimes up to 200 a 220 pounds and I never felt any discomfort in my biceps.

So, what i want to say is, some bicepswork is needed, but don´t do too much if you train frequently events.

[DKirby]

Missed this thread last week. Course I think the biggest risk for a bicep tendon tear is doing reverse grip DL. Couse thats because as many on here know, I tore my left distal bicep tendon a close to 3 weeks ago at Ironsport's Strengthfest doing the max axle DL. But I also know Kirk Nowack had the exact same injury as me, ruptured distal bicep tendon, doing a max reverse grip DL. Since there was a professional documentary film maker/videographer there (Mike Pulcinella) 3 weeks ago with 2 cameras he had it on video zoomed in on the bicep as the tendon ruptured in slo motion. I'm not going to bother posting the You Tube link as many have already seen it over on the Media page.

I pretty know why it happened, as I stated on the thread with the video. My hand/grip placement was slightly off, causing the right side of the bar to come up a little ahead of the left. The combination of that along with the fact that my grip was altered from what it would have been with a regular bar with my hand being wrenched underneath more, caused a slight bend in my reverse grip left arm along with increased strain. Then rip, and that was all she wrote.

FWIW bicep work I'd always done a moderate amount of outside of events.

I'd always done reverse grip before, straps or no straps, no matter the implement. As I said over on the other thread a couple of weeks ago, from now on I will be DOH only, straps and if no straps then hook grip (something I haven't done before). If its a max axle which is too thick to hook grip and no straps are allowed, oh well, I'll do what I can do DOH.

If you're doing DLs on a regular bar, with the knurling/markings its easy to place your grip so the bar comes up level. My $.02 is if you're doing a reverse grip axle DL MAKE SURE you're grip placement isn't off so the bar will come up level when pulled, as I'm thinking the bar coming up not level due to hand/grip placement being off could put you at increased risk of a bicep tendon tear. My theory anyway.