Night Time Nutrition

[jonboy]

What are your feelings on bed-time nutrition? For a while I used to eat a whole container of cottage cheese before I went to sleep (during HS), now sometimes a huge glass of milk at college but I normally take ZMA before i go to sleep. At school I would say I get maybe 6-7 hours of sleep average a night, if even that; so the ZMA helps me with my sleep recovery. I know calcium effects the absorbtion of the zma, so is there anything I can do?

[Jacob Sauter]

Eat steak, and some sort of fiber(broccoli, romain lettuce, celery etc) before bed. If it were me, I would continue eating the cottage cheese, and not buy zma :p

[jonboy]

At school steak + cottage cheese isnt really available, milk on the other hand i can get a ton of. When im home i can down all the cottage cheese I want before bed.

[Jacob Sauter]

Milk has a lot of sugar, and drinking a lot could cause an insulin spike making you store fat. Other than that, I guess its ok.. Egg whites(albumin) also are slow digesting protein. You might prefer them, eggs are cheap too.

[Brian Brouwer]

the protien in milk is also slow digesting (casien) its about 80% of the protien content and the other 20 is whey. Cottage cheese also has the slow digesting protien, casien, or however you spell it.

[Yan]

if your going to drink milk before bed, make sure its not only milk (because milk in and of itself is not a meal) and make sure its whole milk.

animal protein + fiber (green leafy veggies) + low GI carbs (oatmeal, brown rice, yam) + fat (flax, fish oil, naturally occuring fat in milk or animal protein)

if your not too tight on money you can get a casein protein powder, otherwise cottage cheese (4%, or add fat from somewhere else) with an apple or two is fine.

[DCA]

I try to avoid drinking anything cause i'm tired of getting up during the night to go number 1, i like to eat some veggies and chicken/tuna, and some cottage cheese.

I use to add fats to my shakes before i went to bed but i still woke up to go, so now i stick to more solid foods. Sucks when you have to walk up stairs to go to the bathroom when your half asleep..lol

[jonboy]

hey thanks for the help guys. Yan: I actually just picked up a night time formula from proteinfactory.com so im going to be drinking that with some flax and whole milk, I will bring back some fruit/veggies from the dining hall also. My stupid ass forgot to put a flavor,sweetner, etc on it so I had it with water 1 night and almost threw it up. DCA: Ive been drinking a lot of milk lately (before sleep) and I noticed that I dont wake up to go the bathroom at all, but when I do wake up in the morning the toilet is calling my name ;)

[Clint Darden]

Can't find cottage cheese here...darn it.

I like 16 oz cottage cheese, 6-8 oz ground beef, glass of whole milk, and some sort of carb (rice, pasta, etc...).

I still wake up 3 hours later hungry for another "snack".

Clint

[shawn]

ISS nutrition makes a great pm protien. Micellar matrix. It has an 8 hour absorption time so it releaes slowly over then. If you cant find that I agree with what Clint stated he eats. Also try some BCaa's as well

[Jacob Sauter]

ISS nutrition makes a great pm protien. Micellar matrix. It has an 8 hour absorption time so it releaes slowly over then. If you cant find that I agree with what Clint stated he eats. Also try some BCaa's as well

Why would someone waste money on BCAA's? :) Your strongmen, not dieting for a competition.

[Yan]

Yan: I actually just picked up a night time formula from proteinfactory.com so im going to be drinking that with some flax and whole milk, I will bring back some fruit/veggies from the dining hall also. My stupid ass forgot to put a flavor,sweetner, etc on it so I had it with water 1 night and almost threw it up.

that sounds like a solid plan. if you still wake up at night with hunger pangs, you can always eat a little more before bed or have a shake or something quick ready by your bed to chug quickly and get back to sleep. also regarding the taste, i see nothing wrong with throwing in a packet of splenda with your shake if you can't stomach it. man i love being on a board with strength athletes instead of bodybuilders, on a bb'ing board i'd get flamed left and right for telling someone to use splenda "oh no, you might have an extra mg of insulin in your blood!!! the horror!!!"

I gotta agree with Jacob about the BCAA's. sorry to rain on anybody's parade, but your money is much better spent on more whey/casein or real food.

[jonboy]

About BCAA's, I like to throw them in to sip on to sip on with some watered down powerade...I have a huge jug that I throw in a 20z powerade, water, and bcaas. My container of BCAA's has lasted me for a while (bought it before training camp in august), and I still got about a half left. I think it was a good purchase, helped my recover a lot ecspecially during training camp.

[GDolan]

BCAA's help to maintain muscle tissue; they also are needed during times of physical stress and intense exercise to avoid entering a catabolic state.

Ya, why would you waste your money on something like that :rolleyes:

A diet that includes animal protein provides an adequate amount of BCAA for "most people". But as strength athletes, I think it would stand to reason that supplementation of BCAA's could be beneficial.
Personally, I can't eat a lot of whole food right before or directly after training anyways. Can you guys handle eating all the red meat and stuff around your training? Or how do you avoid catabolism (sp?)

[Yan]

Ya, why would you waste your money on something like that :rolleyes:

A diet that includes animal protein provides an adequate amount of BCAA for "most people". But as strength athletes, I think it would stand to reason that supplementation of BCAA's could be beneficial.
Personally, I can't eat a lot of whole food right before or directly after training anyways. Can you guys handle eating all the red meat and stuff around your training? Or how do you avoid catabolism (sp?)

you misunderstood my point.

ON whey (http://www.nutribodies.com/optimum/748927023145.htm)

BCAA's are leucine, isoleucine, and valine. scroll to the bottom of that page and look at how much of each of those you are getting with each serving of whey. that was my point, not that you don't need BCAA's altogether.

[patrick w.]

you misunderstood my point.

ON whey (http://www.nutribodies.com/optimum/748927023145.htm)

BCAA's are leucine, isoleucine, and valine. scroll to the bottom of that page and look at how much of each of those you are getting with each serving of whey. that was my point, not that you don't need BCAA's altogether.


Also, how much of those BCAAs are you actually absorbing? What is the bioavaliability?

[Ryan Phillips]

because im trying to loose weight at the moment, im not eating any foods after 7.30pm is this a good way to loose weight. also wat will i be lossing more of, bodyfat or muscle? coz i dont want to loose muscle.

cheers

[patrick w.]

because im trying to loose weight at the moment, im not eating any foods after 7.30pm is this a good way to loose weight. also wat will i be lossing more of, bodyfat or muscle? coz i dont want to loose muscle.

cheers


what time do you go to bed at?

If you stop eating at 7:30 then i hope you go to bed at 8:30. Otherwise I would say no, this is not an optimal way of losing weight at all. If you are staying up late and not eating you will most defenitly be catabolic in 3-4 hours and then while you sleep you will just add to that. You want to remain in a positive nitrogen balance during sleep as it is like an 8hr fast. The best way to loose weight is to plan you meals out so that you are eating every 3-4 hrs form the time you rise to the time you go to bed. Balance the meals out with the three macro nutrients to allow for optimal digestion and assimlation of the calories as well as stabalixing blood sugar levels which will aid in satiation and keep you from crashing.

[Callie Marunde]

studies done on bcaa state they do help those with nueromuscular transmitter probs, you should be getting enough nutrition from food to not need them, but if your dieting i think they are a must!!

CM

[GDolan]

help those with nueromuscular transmitter probs
I did read BCAA's are helpful to those with Lou Gehrig's Disease and those with Liver disease.

I cannot find or determine the bioavailability of the BCAA's I take though.
This is the product from Extreme Formulations:

ICE GRAPE, 908g 2 lbs.
per 2 scoops (10g)
L-Leucine: 3320mg
L-Isoleucine: 1490mg
L-Valine: 1730mg
L-Glutamine: 2670mg
Vitamin b6: 10mg

[Eric Johnson]

...The best way to loose weight is to plan you meals out so that you are eating every 3-4 hrs form the time you rise to the time you go to bed...

Hell I think that is how I got to 300-ish in the first place, hmmmm maybe it was the type of food (snickers is a food right?) I was eating :confused:

[shawn]

bcaa's depending on the individual have an average absorption (sp?) % of 91%

they also have a bioavailibility of 1 gram of bcaa's =8-10g or protien

As with Goeff I cant eat alot right before or right after workout so supplementing with them is helpful

[patrick w.]

Hell I think that is how I got to 300-ish in the first place, hmmmm maybe it was the type of food (snickers is a food right?) I was eating :confused:


probably the type and the portion size. I mean, to loose weight you need to keep your metabolism running. By not eating you will loose weight but at a less than desierable ratio of muscle to fat. Not eating will cause adaptive thermogenesis.

[jonboy]

Hey Geoff, I got the same thing, ICE by xtreme formulations. Its last me a while and I still got a good amount of left.

[Jacob Sauter]

Ya, why would you waste your money on something like that :rolleyes:

A diet that includes animal protein provides an adequate amount of BCAA for "most people". But as strength athletes, I think it would stand to reason that supplementation of BCAA's could be beneficial.
Personally, I can't eat a lot of whole food right before or directly after training anyways. Can you guys handle eating all the red meat and stuff around your training? Or how do you avoid catabolism (sp?)

I cant handle much before training, but after there is no problem. Powders with some raw oats are a good way to get the necissary protein requirements in. Your a strength athlete, yes, but if your getting near 2g/lb of bw you dont need to spend money on BCAA's. The full research article is located here: http://www.bulknutrition.com/?articleID=76

I highly suggest reading atleast this shortened version :)

Well we've managed to establish that glutamine is useless, I would like to take the next step. I just finished a lot of research on BCAA's, and an article. Here is about 1/4th of the article.


Are BCAA supplements necessary?

Given the information above, there is significant evidence indicating various benefits of BCAA ingestion for athletes. However, the pertitent issue then becomes whether or not BCAA supplements have any advantage over ingestion of protein and/or carbohydrates, which are both significantly less expensive.

The first issue is whether or not BCAA's are superior to protein in stimulating protein synthesis. One study indicates that there is a decline in plasma leucine over five weeks of training in speed and strength athletes consuming 1.26 g protein per kg bodyweight daily, and that leucine supplementation prevents this decrease [4]. However, this study is only confirming a well known fact, which is that strength athletes need high amounts of dietary protein. Studies indicate that in bodybuilders and strength trainers, the amount of dietary protein needed to maximally stimulate protein synthesis is in the realm of 1.4-1.8 g/kg bodyweight (about .6-.7 g/lb), and also that most of these athletes consume well above this amount [31]. For example, a study in stength athletes compared daily dietary protein intakes of .86 g/kg, 1.40 g/kg, and 2.40 g/kg, and found that whole body protein synthesis was increased in the 1.40 g/kg group compared to the lower group, but not further increased in the 2.40 g/kg group. However, rates of leucine oxidation were much higher in the high protein group [32]. This means that if protein intake is adequate, it is doubtful that BCAA supplementation could further stimulate protein synthesis, as the extra amino acids will just be readily catabolized.

Perhaps even more enlightening is the work of Tipton et al., who conducted studies on the types and quantities of amino acids that increase protein synthesis in humans during and after exercise [33]. They compared 40 grams of mixed amino acids to 40 grams of essential amino acids (containing a much higher quantity of BCAA's) to compare their effectiveness in stimulating protein synthesis postexercise, and the two supplements provided a equivalent increases in protein synthesis. The authors then concluded that "there is a maximum rate of net synthesis attainable during hyperaminoacidemia after exercise," and that 40 grams of mixed amino acids is enough to maximally stimulate protein synthesis postexercise.

Another issue is that BCAA supplements are in the form of free-form amino acids, as opposed to a whole protein source. Supplement companies often claim that free-form amino acids are absorbed in greater quantity, more effectively, and more quickly, but this is contrary to the scientific evidence. In general, studies indicate that protein hydrolysates are utilized most effectively, followed by whole proteins, followed by free form amino acids. Intestinal transporters exist for both peptides and free amino acids, and peptides are absorbed more rapidly [34]. Peptides that are not absorbed via a transporter can be rapidly broken down enzymatically. Although not the best model for human athletes, studies in food-deprived rats being refed consistently find that whey protein hydrolysate leads to much higher degrees of weight gain and nitrogen retention than free form amino acids, with one study indicating that whole protein is in the middle in terms of effectiveness [35-36]. Comparative studies have also been done in humans. In healthy subjects, whole protein, protein hydrolysate, and free amino acids all resulted in similar nitrogen balance [37]. Another study in healthy humans found that a protein hydrolysate was absorbed equally as rapidly as free form aminos [38]. Ideally, a study more specific to the conditions in question would be available, but this research indicates that fast-digesting proteins could be just as or more effective than free form amino acids for use before or during exercise.

Carbohydrates may also provide many of the benefits of BCAA supplementation at a much lower cost. As mentioned above, two studies found that BCAA's and carbohydrates together did not provide a performance advantage over carbohydrates alone. Carbohydrates will obviously have glycogen sparing and glucose increasing properties as BCAA's do. Also, carbohydrate supplementation prevents the increase in tryptophan levels caused by exercise, although they may not be as effective as BCAA's [20]. Finally, carbohydrates also have glutamine-sparing and positive immune effects in athletes [39].

All in all, it would appear that the positive effects of BCAA's on protein synthesis can be achieved by a high protein diet and use of a fast-acting protein prior to and after exercise, and that most of the other possible benefits on exercise performance could be achieved equally as effectively by ingesting simple carbohydrates prior to exercise. If caloric intake must be limited at all costs, or if protein intake is inadequate, BCAA's may be useful in this respect. Also, a unique benefit of reduced CNS fatigue by decreasing tryptophan buildup cannot yet be discounted. Given the other properties of BCAA's described below, the usefulness of BCAA supplements can further be questioned.
Other effects of BCAA's

In addition to the effects on tryptophan levels, BCAA's may have other effects on the CNS, both direct and indirect. A well established property is that BCAA supplements reduce dopamine levels, an effect that occurs in many sample populations including healthy human volunteers (at doses of 10, 30, and 60 g) [40]. There are two possible reasons for this effect. The primary reason is that BCAA's competitively inhibit transport of phenylalanine and tyrosine to the brain (similar to the inhibition of tryptophan) [41]. Secondly, BCAA's also simultaneously lower the plasma levels of key amino acids required for neurotransmitter synthesis. This occurs because the BCAA's stimulate protein synthesis, but other amino acids are also required for protein synthesis. This issue does not occur with whole protein sources, which also provide the other amino acids required for protein synthesis. BCAA's also consequently lower levels of norepinephrine [42]. In conditions such as mania and hepatic encephalopathy, this effect of BCAA's can be beneficial [41-42]. However, decreased levels of NE and dopamine are generally not desirable in normal individuals. Functional changes induced in healthy humans by BCAA ingestion so far include impaired spatial memory and elevated plasma prolactin [40-41]. There is also a reference in the literature to BCAA ingestion increasing appetite [43].

[Jacob Sauter]

Here are the references..
The references

4. Sports Med. 1999 Jun;27(6):347-58. Leucine supplementation and intensive training. Mero A.

20. Amino Acids. 2001;20(1):25-34. Amino acids and central fatigue. Blomstrand E.

31. J Am Coll Nutr. 2000 Oct;19(5 Suppl):513S-521S. Beyond the zone: protein needs of active individuals. Lemon PW.

32. J Appl Physiol. 1992 Nov;73(5):1986-95. Evaluation of protein requirements for trained strength athletes. Tarnopolsky MA, Atkinson SA, MacDougall JD, Chesley A, Phillips S, Schwarcz HP.

33. Am J Physiol. 1999 Apr;276(4 Pt 1):E628-34. Postexercise net protein synthesis in human muscle from orally administered amino acids. Tipton KD, Ferrando AA, Phillips SM, Doyle D Jr, Wolfe RR.

34. Ann Nutr Metab. 1982;26(6):337-52. Characterization and nutritional significance of peptide transport in man. Silk DB, Hegarty JE, Fairclough PD, Clark ML.

35. JPEN J Parenter Enteral Nutr. 1989 Jul-Aug;13(4):382-6. Effect of whey proteins, their oligopeptide hydrolysates and free amino acid mixtures on growth and nitrogen retention in fed and starved rats. Poullain MG, Cezard JP, Roger L, Mendy F.

36. Eur J Nutr. 2000 Dec;39(6):237-43. Protein hydrolysate vs free amino acid-based diets on the nutritional recovery of the starved rat. Boza JJ, Moennoz D, Vuichoud J, Jarret AR, Gaudard-de-Weck D, Ballevre O.

37. Gut. 1985 Jul;26(7):694-9. Relative nutritional value of whole protein, hydrolysed protein and free amino acids in man. Moriarty KJ, Hegarty JE, Fairclough PD, Kelly MJ, Clark ML, Dawson AM.

38. Gut. 1982 Aug;23(8):670-4. Comparison of plasma and intraluminal amino acid profiles in man after meals containing a protein hydrolysate and equivalent amino acid mixture. Hegarty JE, Fairclough PD, Moriarty KJ, Clark ML, Kelly MJ, Dawson AM.

39. Clin Nutr. 2002 Oct;21(5):423-9. Carbohydrate supplementation during intense exercise and the immune response of cyclists. Bacurau RF, Bassit RA, Sawada L, Navarro F, Martins E Jr, Costa Rosa LF.

40. Psychopharmacology (Berl). 2002 Mar;160(2):192-7. Epub 2002 Jan 10. A dose-finding study on the effects of branch chain amino acids on surrogate markers of brain dopamine function. Gijsman HJ, Scarna A, Harmer CJ, McTavish SB, Odontiadis J, Cowen PJ, Goodwin GM.

41. Br J Psychiatry. 2003 Mar;182:210-3. Effects of a branched-chain amino acid drink in mania. Scarna A, Gijsman HJ, McTavish SF, Harmer CJ, Cowen PJ, Goodwin GM.

42. Am J Psychiatry. 2003 Jun;160(6):1117-24. Efficacy of the branched-chain amino acids in the treatment of tardive dyskinesia in men. Richardson MA, Bevans ML, Read LL, Chao HM, Clelland JD, Suckow RF, Maher TJ, Citrome L.

43. Brain Res Bull. 1999 Jul 1;49(4):281-4. Branched-chain amino acid-induced hippocampal norepinephrine release is antagonized by picrotoxin: evidence for a central mode of action. Torigoe K, Potter PE, Katz DP.

[patrick w.]

Your a strength athlete, yes, but if your getting near 2g/lb of bw you dont need to spend money on BCAA's.

I agree. As long as you are eating a variety of protein sources you should be okay. Also, for those trying to lose weight, a lot of BCAA powders are jacked up with sugar as its delivery mechanism (isulin). That is not helpful if you are trying to keep insulin levels stable so the protein poweder with oats is a much better bet in my opinion.

[Brendan]

I just go with tuna and some veggies and flax oil... If the zma is only to help sleep you might want to look into something cheaper such as melatonin. I've also heard glutamine can help wth sleep.

[GDolan]

I highly suggest reading atleast this shortened version

Thanks for posting this!!

[Yan]

Thanks for posting this!!

like i always say. strength athletes know training and bodybuilders know nutrition :D