I'm picturing the birth of a new event

[Keith Crone]

http://allaboutmidgets.typepad.com/news_photos_and_gossip_th/2007/03/midget_and_dwar.html

[Scott Markowitz]

I can't believe that is illegal here. I can see enacting a ban on throwing people who don't want to be thrown, but if they midget doesn't care, why should some do-gooder legislator (or ....... lawyer, who is almost certainly behind it)?

[Steve Olson]

so its illegal to throw a midget...can i pick up one of you guys and toss your language edit without getting arrested? if so, thatd be sweet :EB:

[Michael Ambrose]

I am by far, beyond politically incorrect. That being said...

My four year old son has a rare form of dwarfism (cartlidge hair hypoplasia and he has luckily avoided all of the more common serious issues associated with it). I host a annual Christmas party for the Little People of America district that we belong to. In short (non-pc pun intended), I know a lot of little people (the preferred term, dwarf being the next best) .

The term midget is as offensive to most little people as is using the "N" word to describe someone of African decent or "F" word for someone who is gay. While there are a few dwarfs who are attempting to make the word 'midget' the equilavent of blacks calling each other 'n****' or gays using 'f**', it does not share the same support in the community. My experience has been that the vast majority of average sized people are not aware that the term midget is offensive. I was among them before my son was born. I now know better. So do you.

[Nikhil Rao]

I can't believe that is illegal here. I can see enacting a ban on throwing people who don't want to be thrown, but if they midget doesn't care, why should some do-gooder legislator (or jack@$$ lawyer, who is almost certainly behind it)?

that's what I'm saying.

[Michael Ambrose]

Scott,

The 'tossing' is akin to circus freak show or carnival events/competions. It is just one of the many ways/places that dwarfs were exploited/made fun of.

Should we have mixed martial art fighting events where pros/amateurs beat up willing weaker/untrained people even if they are in 'protective suits'?

At some point it goes beyond being sophmoric and un-pc and into plain degrading and humiliating.

[Scott Markowitz]

If it's degrading/humiliating, then don't do it. Some may not feel that it is degrading. I'm not saying it's a good idea, or even that I'd do it, but it shouldn't be illegal. I wouldn't bother to watch a mma fight like you described, but so long as people aren't hurt by it, I don't think it's any of the government's business. The argument can be made (though I won't make it here) that even if people *are* hurt by it, so long as there is informed consent by all involved.

[rod johnson]

some one should get wee mans thoughts on this subject. my 2 cents would be in to agree with scott if evey one consents no problem.

[Kÿle Vezeau]

It was banned here in Ontario, just 4 years ago under Bill 97, the single largest infringement on my rights I've ever seen. That being said we used to have a dwarf called Midget-T who would get tossed while looking like Mr T. From what I understand there where a lot of Midget-Ts out there.

The dwarfs would get both a base salary plus tips to be tossed. Seems like a fair gig to me.

(edited for repetitiveness)

[Michael Ambrose]

Rod, my comments are based on those I have heard from little people. At the national convention they barred a dwarf comic/activist from coming who was very big on using degrading humor against other dwarfs. I think the vast majority of them would/do find it offensive, hence it being banned. Why not a 'throw the bimbo' contest every Friday night at Hooters?

Scott, I agree with the government non-interefence (and living in the 'nanny state' of Massachusetts - I get more than my share) but if enough people are ofended by it, I can understand it being outlawed. No one will stop consenting adults form doing it on their own time in private. But as an advetised money making venture? You could agrue for just about anything using the 'consenting adults' argument. But again, private and public are two different things.

Kyle, I do hope that the comment that 'outlawing that was the biggest infringements on your rights' was sarcasm. Would be rather sad if it wasn't.

[Scott Markowitz]

How about banning fat jokes? I am offended by them. How many people being offended is "enough"? Would it matter if no money was involved? Is that what makes it degrading? Some would argue that a "throw the bimbo" is no worse than the "dress like a bimbo" that Hooters already does.

Banning the guy from their own convention is fine. It's their convention; they can have whoever they want and control the content. They shouldn't be able to control the content of someplace they wouldn't go anyway. Perhaps some restrictions on placement (ie, no midget-tossing next to a school for them, or something like that) might be ok, but a blanket ban is just...well, very nanny-ish.

I'm not trying to be a jerk here, but sometimes people just need to accept that things they don't agree with or find offensive will happen and get on with their lives.

[Nikhil Rao]

It's a slippery slope Michael. That's the problem. Once we decide that things can be banned because they're 'offensive' we end up with the Van Gogh problem in the Netherlands, or ads for ham and cheese sandwiches being banned in the UK.

You can have truly free speech, or you can have solely inoffensive speech; you can't have both. That goes for action as well. As Neal Boortz says : "Free speech is meant to protect unpopular speech. Popular speech, by definition, needs no protection."

[rod johnson]

I do agree that there are alot of things people do that offend others, i should know i work lawenforcement and the things people call in for are some times are a pain in the butt, but they do have there right to make a complaint about it. I'm not saying it's right to do little people tossing or what ever people want to call it. I'm just saying we all get offended by things that happen or take place in this world and others make money on it. It's the world we live in. I didn't mean to ruffle any feathers. Oh and i have buddy that is a little person so i agree, ya don't make fun of little people, that is bullying and i don't like bullys. :LOL:

[Ryan Rhodes]

Michael, I believe in personal liberty and the freedom to choose, and if a little person chooses to participate in that kind of activity, I believe they should be able to. The concept isn't much different than a lot of other "off-color" programs that we see on TV etc. I, myself thrive on dirty jokes and good laughs as much as the next guy. This all being said-

There's a fine line between funny and ignorant. I feel very embarassed by these immature, insensitive Language edit:1st warning and apologize if they offended you. Those kinds of derogatory words shouldn't be tolerated anywhere. It Language Edit me off that a mod would edit a slang term for "poo", but skims right over ignorant and hurtful slang like that.

What jackholes...

[Jerame Linnell]

I have a good friend who is 6'5" 330lbs and a real nice guy. One year at the Pasco Wa. powerlifting meet he had on a shirt that said "midget tossing champ" that he got from some bar a long time ago and one of the lifters there read his shirt and told him to stay the "F" away from him. Jeff felt so bad that he went out to his car and pulled a shirt out of his gymbag but the damage was already done. Needless to say, he does not where that shirt anymore.

[Josh Kamins]

Its more a matter of exploitation than offensive terms in my opinion. The little person community is trying to get away away from being considered circus freaks and being coerced into doing things that they wouldn't want to, but have to because other jobs and opportunities aren't open to them. The law is trying to protect them from bodily harm and exploitation.

[Michael Ambrose]

Thanks Ryan.

I am not offended however. I'm just trying to provide a little bit of education here. Ignorance can only be claimed when you aren't aware of the facts. And it amazes me how many people look at the work ignorance/ignorant as an insult verses what it truly means. After that, if someone is going to be a jerk (and I do not feel as if anyone here has been) they wil be a jerk. It's just foolish of them to think that no one will stand up to them at some point. People continue to engage in borderline or outright bully behavior because it's tolerated. Toss the little guy around - ha ha ha, lets go beat up a few sissy queers, let's show those (insert racial or ethnic group here) who's town/neighborhood this is... It's a slippery slope all right.

As far as the personal liberty thing... ALL for it. But... the government regulates and controls a lot of things. Things that are cruel, dangerous, degrading, health risks, etc. This fits that category. Bare knuckle boxing? Not happening. Prostitution? (excpet Nevada) Same. No need to go on...

If you want to see non-pc 'dwarf humor', watch 'Mind of Mencia' on Comedy Central. One of the regulars on the show is a dwarf and he's a riot. Compeletely off color skits that are funny as hell. Rent 'Bad Santa' - another laugh riot where a dwarf has his size used for humor but is not offensive in doing so.

[amy kelly]

webster

Main Entry: midg·et
Pronunciation: 'mi-j&t
Function: noun
Usage: often attributive
Etymology: midge
1 : something (as an animal) much smaller than usual
2 sometimes offensive : a very small person; specifically : a person of unusually small size who is physically well-proportioned

Main Entry: 1dwarf
Pronunciation: 'dworf
Function: noun
Inflected Form(s): plural dwarfs /'dworfs /; also dwarves /'dworvz/
Usage: often attributive
Etymology: Middle English dwerg, dwerf, from Old English dweorg, dweorh; akin to Old High German twerg dwarf
1 a : a person of unusually small stature; especially : one whose bodily proportions are abnormal

dwarfs are offended by the term midget because they are not midgets. not all 'little people' are offended by the word midget.

[Michael Ambrose]

webster

dwarfs are offended by the term midget because they are not midgets. not all 'little people' are offended by the word midget.


Amy,

Go to any Little People of America regional meeting (held quarterly around the country) or the annual National meeting and ask that question. Not all of them have to be. Not all blacks coinsider the "N" word (when used by another black person 99% of the time) to be ofensive either. Do you plan on using it in mixed racial company anytime soon?

The medical community does not recognize the Webster quote you posted with regards to dwarfism (and trust me, I have seen MANY specialists as my son is only one of 87 registered/known people in the US with his form). Neither does the VAST majority of the LP (little people) community.

[Mike Westerling]

Michael, I believe in personal liberty and the freedom to choose, and if a little person chooses to participate in that kind of activity, I believe they should be able to. The concept isn't much different than a lot of other "off-color" programs that we see on TV etc. I, myself thrive on dirty jokes and good laughs as much as the next guy. This all being said-

There's a fine line between funny and ignorant. I feel very embarassed by these immature, insensitive ...... and apologize if they offended you. Those kinds of derogatory words shouldn't be tolerated anywhere. It ...... me off that a mod would edit a slang term for "poo", but skims right over ignorant and hurtful slang like that.

What jackholes...

I'm not really sure where I/we are Jackholes for not editing the slang you mentioned. Unless I've missed something the slang words where used in a thoughtful discussion as an example of how the word "midget" is recieved in the little people comunity. And those racial slang words where used by the person you are apologizing to on behalf of the "insensitive ......". The other slang used was the term "midget" which until Mike Ambrose pointed it out was not even known to be hurtful by most of us. As far as I can tell all (I may have missed one) slang words in this thread have been used in a mature discussion and not in a hurtful way towards anyone. The reason we edit slang words for "poo" is because we don't want little kids coming on here and their parents saying that our content is inappropriate. Most (I'm sure not all) parents would look at this discussion and see that there kids are learning that calling little people the "m" word is like calling black people the "n" word and would probably not look at this thread as being that offensive. Sorry if you disagree.
-Mike

[Ryan Rhodes]

Wasn't taking a crap on Big Brother, Mike.

By jackholes, I meant the insensitive Mod Edit

And yes, I do disagree. "I didn't know" doesn't indemnify anybody from acting like a jackhole, but even if it did, nobody had the kohones to say even that. They demonstrated that they knew what they were saying was wrong or at the least very politically incorrect, but they didn't expect a fellow member to have a personal connection to it.

^ = Jackholes

Sorry if you disagree. I appreciate you being so concerned with what I think is appropriate.

I know for a fact that at least 1 little person visits this board. I have no problem sticking up for the "little" guy. I sure hope that doesn't Mod Edit off THE MAN. Don't know what I'd do...

[Steve Olson]

how long until porno or any adult entertainment is outlawed in the US?
its the same concept, willing females who will exploit their body for money, and other people, of who it has NO effect on at all, complaining about it. if you dont like it, dont watch it and dont participate, its that simple.

how long until the US is no longer a democracy? within our lifetimes for sure.

[Ian Duggan]

Technically speaking, the US isn't a democracy, it's a republic.

In one, the people vote on everything, in the other they nominate people to vote for them.

Regards,

A. Pedant

On the subject at hand, I'm all for personal freedom, but somethings need to be legislated. When a body of people (be them black, white, gay, straight or short) are having a hard time getting respect, general welfare, and being part of the perfect union, then I think somethings need to be controlled. Just because you can find one person will to do a certain thing, doesn't mean that the people that it could affect have to put up with it.In some instances the majority don't know what's good for 'em, and in others the minority don't.

Just because the majority of people want to see it, or want things a certain way, doesn't mean that should be the case. And yes, I think your pornography laws are incredibly lax, but that's a whole other discussion. For a less family orientated board...

[Nikhil Rao]

so you don't actually believe in free speech, then.

That's the problem. It's either free or it's not. That's when people start using words like 'reasonable'. And then the problem becomes what is 'reasonable'.

In the UK now, that means that slowly, depictions of pig or pig products in public settings are on many occasions deemed 'offensive' and in some cases forcibly removed by government authority. Depictions of beef remain unmolested.

Meanwhile in the US, it's ok to mock Indians and Hindu culture on the Simpsons simply because we don't make a fuss about it. But at the same time if Carlos Mencia were not hispanic he'd be off the air in short order for his jokes about mexicans, a victim of our ridiculous 'hate speech' laws.

There's a book out right now in the 'science' section of all our bookstores about the female brain, and about all the ways that womens' brains are better than mens' (her word choice not mine). Yet what happened to Dr. Lawrence Summers for stating an opinion that had more than a little scientific corroboration?

The problem with deciding to restrict speech based is who decides and how. Right now, there is indeed censorship of a particularly ugly kind. Complain loudly enough about a term or a statement or an idea and it'll be silenced.

[Michael Ambrose]

Freedom of speech and the freedom to do anything you want are two different topics. I am assuming that you are now commenting on the editting of the posts vs. the original topic.

This board is not a bastion of free speech. You, I and everyone else are guests in Jesse's 'house'. He has set the rules of behavior for those who are here. Those rules are clearly posted. No one has forcred anyone to be on this board. If you want to be here, you abide by the rules and accept the judgement of the moderators. Period. On of my posts in this thread was editted for content. Looking back, I understand why and accept it. If you want to discuss topics from this board at a level that is not acceptable here join the yahoo group strongman_raw_and_uncensored and post there. I am one of the moderators there and the only rule is no bashing of other members is allowed. There are plenty of places on the web where complete free speech is allowed. Rant 'freely' there.

Lawence summers firing was more political than substance. He was not liked by the faculty. His comments were used an an excuse to force him out. Summers made the mistake of not standing his ground and standing up for what was right... his comments were not sexist. They were and are backed up by a lot of respectable science. He and others caved to political correctness. You are right... to many people make noise about something and they get their way. BUT... when their way is wrong, those who know better have a right to stand up for their position and not give in. Here we go back to the topic at hand... 50 years ago the 'n' word was acceptable in day to day talk. It was rightfully made no so. It was/is still a degrading term. The 'f' word for gays is similar. While it has not quite reached the level of 'n', it is getting there. And it should be. I know people who during the last sentance before they were hit, beat up, spit on etc heard the 'f' word in some form used. Bullying is for insecure people and it should not be tolerated be it physical or verbal. The fact is most people with dwarfism find the term 'midget' offensive. There's a real basis for that. Most people don't know that. Now everyone who has read it has. The term was used in a bullying/degrading sense and as such those affected by it have the right to not be referred to that way. The reason is now known. The question is are 'you' (not singling anyone person here out) more concerned with having the 'freedom' to verbally bash someone (aka be a bully) or willing to look at it from a mature perspective that says, this is wrong, it's not going to hurt me to change my 'behavior/speech' in this regard.

When a pendulm swings all the way to one side, it swings back almost as far in the opposite direction. When left on it's own, those swings get smaller and smaller and eventually a steady state in the middle is acheived. The same holds true for any change in society. I say find the common ground.

END OF RANT AND 'LECTURE'

I want to get back to getting (mod edit) freakishly strong!
:YT:

[Kÿle Vezeau]

Kyle, I do hope that the comment that 'outlawing that was the biggest infringements on your rights' was sarcasm. Would be rather sad if it wasn't.

Actually it is, and there is nothing sad about it.

I have the right to legally marry a man, sleep with 14 year olds and women can walk around in public topless.

Now I have never done nor do I plan on doing any of these things but I do have the right to do them. Taking away my right to toss and a dwarfs right to be tossed is an unnecessary infringement on our rights.

"(2) A person who contravenes subsection (1) is guilty of an offence and on conviction is liable to a fine of not more than $5,000 or to imprisonment for a term of not more than six months, or to both."


It should also be noted that I have NEVER seen a topless woman walking down the street. :(

[Michael Ambrose]

WOW...I can't and won't waste my time or energy beyond this sentance.