Double points for stones at Venice Beach = TERRIBLE IDEA

[Tony Christopher]

First off, let me say that this is NOT an "anti Dave Ostlund post". It sounds like Dave had an amazing contest, double points or not, and he deserves both respect and congratulations. The rules were the same for everyone, and under those rules, Dave beat Mariusz and won. To quote the immortal Forest Gump ... "That's all I got to say about that."

However, making the last event in a strongman contest count double, is, I'm sorry to say this (I'm prepared to suffer the virtual vegetables and rotten eggs) a typically American, idiotic idea.

Here's why:

1) Americans seem to just LOVE invalidating legitimate contests (of all sorts) with a "Super Duper Amazing Bonus Round" that's worth more than the rest of the contest put together. Now that didn't QUITE happen in this case, but it's a step toward it ... the type of contest where nothing matters except who wins the last event. Great for ratings, I guess, since Americans are suckers for the underdog who comes back at the last moment, terrible for the legitimacy of the contest or sport. Terrible for determining who is really the best at something.

2) Sure stones is an important, pivotal strongman event. But so are plenty of other things (log press, farmers. medley etc.) If you start doubling the points for the last event (whatever that may be) you're going to give a major advantage to guys who excel at that event. In the past few years, as I've been watching strongman, we've commendably moved AWAY from the "that guy only won this contest because the events suited him" mentality. This is going to move us right back toward it. Bad, bad, BAD idea. Kudos to Dave BTW, for arguing AGAINST doing this even though it clearly served him.

3) Foreign competitors, or rookie competitors, who don't catch the changes will be placed at an unfair disadvantage. As will guys who didn't emphasize the key event in training (this will be an especially big problem if changes are announced last minute -> "Hey everyone, log press will now be worth 3x points ... better hope you trained for it!"). Again, I remember a few years ago there was constant bitching about last minute event changes to suit certain athletes. Haven't heard a lot of that lately, this opens up the same pandora's box.

4) Stones, unless it's for max weight (which is extremely rare), is primarily a speed event , as is medley (the other event that's often last in a contest). If you start doubling points for these events you're going to move away from strongman as a test of pure strength and move back toward the Janne Virtannen days of strongman as a test of who's the quickest strength athlete. Now, I know this is a question of taste, but I don't think that's what strongman should be. This sport is about who's the strongest, not about who's the quickest. Again, in this humble nobody's opinion, in the past few years the sport has moved in the RIGHT direction in this regard. If this points doubling catches on it will move us back in the wrong direction.

5) Lastly, and most importantly, it hurts the guy who actually wins. It inevitably raises questions about whether he's REALLY the best. I guarantee that every Mariusz fan on the planet is now crying foul over this. The strength community is going to be full of "Ostlund's not REALLY the best ... he just won it on a fluke" chatter. Frankly, that's a disservice to Dave ... who had an insane contest any way you look at it.

Sorry ... but this was just a plain stupid idea. I really hope it's the last time we see it.

[Jesse Marunde]

haha you havent thought about it hard enough.

how many pts is 1st place worth on the 1st event? how many on the last event? are the points REALLY double???

[Tony Christopher]

All the posts I've read (here and elsewhere) have said that "the stones were worth double" in this contest.

If this isn't true, please explain the scoring. I'm sure everyone would like to know.

And if it isn't true, then I'm happy to take back what I said.

If I'm wrong ... I'm wrong and I'll admit it.

[Billy Wolt]

Jesse,

thx for the write up and explaining the points system.

Didn't realize that 1st place for the first few events was 14pts and that they just wanted to keep the scoring scoring consistent after the cut....hell, i didn't realize there was a cut :)

[D.Norris]

First off, let me say that this is NOT an "anti Dave Ostlund post". It sounds like Dave had an amazing contest, double points or not, and he deserves both respect and congratulations. The rules were the same for everyone, and under those rules, Dave beat Mariusz and won. To quote the immortal Forest Gump ... "That's all I got to say about that."

However, making the last event in a strongman contest count double, is, I'm sorry to say this (I'm prepared to suffer the virtual vegetables and rotten eggs) a typically American, idiotic idea.

Here's why:

1) Americans seem to just LOVE invalidating legitimate contests (of all sorts) with a "Super Duper Amazing Bonus Round" that's worth more than the rest of the contest put together. Now that didn't QUITE happen in this case, but it's a step toward it ... the type of contest where nothing matters except who wins the last event. Great for ratings, I guess, since Americans are suckers for the underdog who comes back at the last moment, terrible for the legitimacy of the contest or sport. Terrible for determining who is really the best at something.

2) Sure stones is an important, pivotal strongman event. But so are plenty of other things (log press, farmers. medley etc.) If you start doubling the points for the last event (whatever that may be) you're going to give a major advantage to guys who excel at that event. In the past few years, as I've been watching strongman, we've commendably moved AWAY from the "that guy only won this contest because the events suited him" mentality. This is going to move us right back toward it. Bad, bad, BAD idea. Kudos to Dave BTW, for arguing AGAINST doing this even though it clearly served him.

3) Foreign competitors, or rookie competitors, who don't catch the changes will be placed at an unfair disadvantage. As will guys who didn't emphasize the key event in training (this will be an especially big problem if changes are announced last minute -> "Hey everyone, log press will now be worth 3x points ... better hope you trained for it!"). Again, I remember a few years ago there was constant bitching about last minute event changes to suit certain athletes. Haven't heard a lot of that lately, this opens up the same pandora's box.

4) Stones, unless it's for max weight (which is extremely rare), is primarily a speed event , as is medley (the other event that's often last in a contest). If you start doubling points for these events you're going to move away from strongman as a test of pure strength and move back toward the Janne Virtannen days of strongman as a test of who's the quickest strength athlete. Now, I know this is a question of taste, but I don't think that's what strongman should be. This sport is about who's the strongest, not about who's the quickest. Again, in this humble nobody's opinion, in the past few years the sport has moved in the RIGHT direction in this regard. If this points doubling catches on it will move us back in the wrong direction.

5) Lastly, and most importantly, it hurts the guy who actually wins. It inevitably raises questions about whether he's REALLY the best. I guarantee that every Mariusz fan on the planet is now crying foul over this. The strength community is going to be full of "Ostlund's not REALLY the best ... he just won it on a fluke" chatter. Frankly, that's a disservice to Dave ... who had an insane contest any way you look at it.

Sorry ... but this was just a plain stupid idea. I really hope it's the last time we see it.


Good post and I agree with it 100%.

[DaneGarreau]

I have to agree that this way of scoring is a bad idea.

A very similar thing happened at last year's Mohegan Sun. The field was cut down to 8 athletes but they still awarded 16 points for first place. Well in the end it really screwed Gillingham and Nee out of a placing.

[Billy Wolt]

the way the scored it was kinda silly though...if 1st place was worth 14pts in the first few events, then it should have been worth 14pts in the last events.

Had it been the same scoring, Mariuz would have gotten 65 points and dave would have ended up with 62.

It looks as if Mariuz' 5th place finish gave him only 8pts in the stones, while a 5th place finish in the events before the cut would have given him 10pts.

seems kinda dumb to me.

here's what the points looked like

Prior to cut after cut
1st 14 16
2nd 13 14
3rd 12 12
4th 11 10
5th 10 8

Dave actually gain 2pts more for first and mariuz lost 2 for his placing in the stones.

[Kevin Cronin]

However, making the last event in a strongman contest count double, is, I'm sorry to say this (I'm prepared to suffer the virtual vegetables and rotten eggs) a typically American, idiotic idea.

Here's why:

1) Americans seem to just LOVE invalidating legitimate contests (of all sorts) with a "Super Duper Amazing Bonus Round" that's worth more than the rest of the contest put together. Now that didn't QUITE happen in this case, but it's a step toward it ... the type of contest where nothing matters except who wins the last event. Great for ratings, I guess, since Americans are suckers for the underdog who comes back at the last moment, terrible for the legitimacy of the contest or sport. Terrible for determining who is really the best at something.



hte problem I have with this post is that it paints with a pretty broad stroke - it's an american idea, americans love the bonus round, americans are suckers for the underdog - despite the fact that you've got Dave Ostlund, Jared Enderton, Brandon Campbell, Dane G. and Dave Beers, all americans (i believe, I'm not 100% sure of jareds nationality) either railing against it or at the very least skeptical of/questioning it. So if you'd like to have a legitimate discussion about it, why bother drawing "us vs them" lines in the sand? It's just irresponsible.

Jesse has pointed out that 1st place got 14 points on the first event and 16 on the last, arguing that that means the points havent really doubled. BUT - and this is key - Jesse also pointed out that what would be more equitable would be to make 1st place in all events 14, 2nd in all 13, 3rd 12, etc The problem isn't with how MANY points 1st place receives, the problem is with the point spread in a particular event between 1st place and last place, not with the raw number of points received. If the winner of the last event got one million points, and 8th place got 999,993 that would be fair, the point spread would remain consistent.

I agree that doubling the last event points keeps it more exciting, makes the last event less of a formality, and that's good for tv, etc, but you dont see the NFL doubling points scored in the fourth quarter of the superbowl even tho that would accomplish the same things. I think probably the best solution is just not to cut athletes and keep all scores from first through last equal throughout the contest

[Paul Neuhaus]

Tony,
If you want to give your opinions on the scoring system, that's fine. Everyone is entitled to their opinions. However, do not make generalizations of "all Americans". This is very offensive. This is just as offensive as it would be for a white man to make generalizations of people of other races. The scoring systems at each contest are decided upon by the promoters, not "all Americans".

[JEFF VANCO]

This is becoming more like figure skating every day.

BRING BACK THE GOOD OL' DAYS - or I'll put a camel spider in your blanket

[Jared Enderton]

I don't agree with the scoring-yet. I just think it is more logical to have them all be equal. My brother brought up a good point, "what strength do you possess in the stones that wasnt tested in the other events?" I am sure there is some strength in diff areas, but jesse also brought up a good point in his write-up. or somebody did on his write up I cant remember.

[Mike Landrich]

My 2 cents, go to a reverse scoring system. 1st gets 1 pt in all events, 2nd gets 2, etc. Low total wins. Coming in 14th on the first event would screw you up pretty bad, but coming in 14th should get you eliminated anyway.

As for complaining, the rules are what they are. No one, except Dave, complained beforehand. Don't complain afterward.


Tony
Nice way to stir the pot about an issue unrelated to the original post. I think "All Americans" was pretty unnecessary. Where are you from?


Mike

[mark sams]

Tony,
If you want to give your opinions on the scoring system, that's fine. Everyone is entitled to their opinions. However, do not make generalizations of "all Americans". This is very offensive. This is just as offensive as it would be for a white man to make generalizations of people of other races. The scoring systems at each contest are decided upon by the promoters, not "all Americans".

Why did you specifically say white? Would it be ok for a black, mexican or asian to make generalizations about other races?

[Jay O'Neill]

You all have way too much time on your hands..... It's Fathers day... if you have Kids... Get off the computer and spend time with them.... If you don't have Kids... Go practice makin some!

[Kevin Cronin]

Why did you specifically say white? Would it be ok for a black, mexican or asian to make generalizations about other races?

mexican is a nationality, not a race

[Ian Duggan]

The simplest thing would simply be to not have a cut. In a sport where certain types of athletes suit certain events, I don't think having cuts half way are a great idea. Just look at WSM finals, how many times have we seen guys do badly after half the qualifying round, go on to not only qualify but place high?

Having said that, if your going to do the split thing, I guess you have to monkey about with the points. 8th place before the split is a reasonable result; 8th place after the split is last. They shouldn't result in the same level of points being awarded.

So in that case, I take it that it wasn't just the last even that had different points then, it was everything from the split onwards? Or did the elimination happen right before the last event?

Man... I'm confuddled...

:confused:

[ClayEdgin]

Typical bad American idea? I didn't know any Americans ran anything in the WSMSS. I was under the impression it was you foreigners.

[Paul Neuhaus]

Why did you specifically say white? Would it be ok for a black, mexican or asian to make generalizations about other races?
It was an EXAMPLE! Do I need to list every possible scenario?

[Tony Christopher]

Guys,

Poor choice of words on my part with the "typical American" comment. Cheerfully withdrawn, I'm sorry.

I'm from Canada.

That said, I think my original point (which I've managed to successfully deflect from ... nice job on my part) still stands.

Tony

[Nick Best]

Wow! If you get a letter 3 weeks out stating the fact, and you are told again in the rules meeting , its a level playing field. If a competitor decides not to take it seriously thats HIS problem. Could of, should of ,would of, doesn't cut it! Dave took it seriously and did his best, and was rewarded for it. IT WAS NOT A LAST MINUTE DECISION SO SOMEONE COULD BEAT PUDZ. IF he goes out and smokes the stones there is nothing to talk about.

[ADAMBAUER]

The point is Dave won, Marius was second and Jesse was third, we can sit and argue about the points system till the cows come home, either way the end result is the same.

[Chris Mathison]

1) Americans seem to just LOVE invalidating legitimate contests (of all sorts) with a "Super Duper Amazing Bonus Round" that's worth more than the rest of the contest put together. Sorry ... but this was just a plain stupid idea. .

Well its a good thing you didnt have to exagerate to make your point..

[Jesse Snadden]

here's what the points looked like

Prior to cut after cut
1st 14 16
2nd 13 14
3rd 12 12
4th 11 10
5th 10 8

Dave actually gain 2pts more for first and mariuz lost 2 for his placing in the stones.

Congrats to Dave Ostlund on the win. Beating Mariusz is something few can claim.

However, If that was the case with the points on the stones, then this is wrong IMO. There shouldn't be more than 1 pt difference between placings.

[Billy Wolt]

Congrats to Dave Ostlund on the win. Beating Mariusz is something few can claim.

However, If that was the case with the points on the stones, then this is wrong IMO. There shouldn't be more than 1 pt difference between placings.


Mariuz had 55 going into stones and ending at 63 = 8pts for 5th
dave had 48 and ending at 64 = 16pts for 1st

I'm not trying to discredit Dave, just saying that the scoring is silly (regardless of how far in advance it was known). Scoring for all strongman contests should be standardized, it will help bring some credibility to the sport.

Dave has come along way and had an awesome day. I think he will be very competitive in WSM this year.

[Jesse Snadden]

Scoring for all strongman contests should be standardized, it will help bring some credibility to the sport.

Yes exactly. Without consistency, then people will question the integrity of the sport as is being done now. No event should be scored any different then any other. Despite what anyone says this does nothing for TV either. I think the methods of filming Strongman needs a total overhaul anyways. I never watch it anymore, I find watching strongman on TV boring and looses the intensity and extreme nature that everyone see's when they watch it live.

Want excitement? Finish a contest with a medley. When the competitors are close in points and they are neck and neck trying to finish a brutal medley, that always gets the crowd standing up and going wild up here.

[Ryan Brown]

I suppose people can argue about the scoring system. But if what is said above is correct, then a 5th place finish in an event will often result in you not winning the contest. Even Mariuz probably knows that he cost himself the contest by letting four people beat him in a key event.

I would also feel a little more sympathetic to the scoring point if we were not taking about stones--the event that almost defines strongman. If it was a duck walk or something odd I would think it was more about rigging, but stones?

Congrats to Dave. Amazing performance.

[Jesse Marunde]

I suppose people can argue about the scoring system. But if what is said above is correct, then a 5th place finish in an event will often result in you not winning the contest. Even Mariuz probably knows that he cost himself the contest by letting four people beat him in a key event.

I would also feel a little more sympathetic to the scoring point if we were not taking about stones--the event that almost defines strongman. If it was a duck walk or something odd I would think it was more about rigging, but stones?

Congrats to Dave. Amazing performance.

well said. I think stones should be worth TRIPLE!!!! hhaa

[Paul F.X. Armstrong]

However, making the last event in a strongman contest count double, is, I'm sorry to say this (I'm prepared to suffer the virtual vegetables and rotten eggs) a typically American, idiotic idea.

Here's why:

1) Americans seem to just LOVE invalidating legitimate contests (of all sorts) with a "Super Duper Amazing Bonus Round" that's worth more than the rest of the contest put together.

Great for ratings, I guess, since Americans are suckers for the underdog who comes back at the last moment, terrible for the legitimacy of the contest or sport.




3) Foreign competitors, or rookie competitors, who don't catch the changes will be placed at an unfair disadvantage.





WSMSS isn't an "American" organization-Americans didn't make the rules here

Odd Haugen- actual on site promoter -resides in the USA but,I believe,is a Norwegian citizen and in May competed in(and almost won)Norway's Strongest Man.

Your post makes it seems like an American conspiracy--when American Citizens had little to do with the rules or promoting the contest--

And as for Marius being a "foreign competitor" and "at an unfair disadvantage" sounds like it was same rules as Mohegan Sun---which he had just recently competed in.

[Richard Reynolds]

haha you havent thought about it hard enough.

how many pts is 1st place worth on the 1st event? how many on the last event? are the points REALLY double???
Sorry to beat this thing to death, but I just saw the scoring. First place in the next to last event, the deadlift medley was worth 8 pts (which Pudz won). There were the same number of competitors as the Atlas stones. So yes, the points really were doubled from just the previous event.

[Michael Douglas - uk]

First off, let me say that this is NOT an "anti Dave Ostlund post". It sounds like Dave had an amazing contest, double points or not, and he deserves both respect and congratulations. The rules were the same for everyone, and under those rules, Dave beat Mariusz and won. To quote the immortal Forest Gump ... "That's all I got to say about that."

However, making the last event in a strongman contest count double, is, I'm sorry to say this (I'm prepared to suffer the virtual vegetables and rotten eggs) a typically American, idiotic idea.

Here's why:

1) Americans seem to just LOVE invalidating legitimate contests (of all sorts) with a "Super Duper Amazing Bonus Round" that's worth more than the rest of the contest put together. Now that didn't QUITE happen in this case, but it's a step toward it ... the type of contest where nothing matters except who wins the last event. Great for ratings, I guess, since Americans are suckers for the underdog who comes back at the last moment, terrible for the legitimacy of the contest or sport. Terrible for determining who is really the best at something.

2) Sure stones is an important, pivotal strongman event. But so are plenty of other things (log press, farmers. medley etc.) If you start doubling the points for the last event (whatever that may be) you're going to give a major advantage to guys who excel at that event. In the past few years, as I've been watching strongman, we've commendably moved AWAY from the "that guy only won this contest because the events suited him" mentality. This is going to move us right back toward it. Bad, bad, BAD idea. Kudos to Dave BTW, for arguing AGAINST doing this even though it clearly served him.

3) Foreign competitors, or rookie competitors, who don't catch the changes will be placed at an unfair disadvantage. As will guys who didn't emphasize the key event in training (this will be an especially big problem if changes are announced last minute -> "Hey everyone, log press will now be worth 3x points ... better hope you trained for it!"). Again, I remember a few years ago there was constant bitching about last minute event changes to suit certain athletes. Haven't heard a lot of that lately, this opens up the same pandora's box.

4) Stones, unless it's for max weight (which is extremely rare), is primarily a speed event , as is medley (the other event that's often last in a contest). If you start doubling points for these events you're going to move away from strongman as a test of pure strength and move back toward the Janne Virtannen days of strongman as a test of who's the quickest strength athlete. Now, I know this is a question of taste, but I don't think that's what strongman should be. This sport is about who's the strongest, not about who's the quickest. Again, in this humble nobody's opinion, in the past few years the sport has moved in the RIGHT direction in this regard. If this points doubling catches on it will move us back in the wrong direction.

5) Lastly, and most importantly, it hurts the guy who actually wins. It inevitably raises questions about whether he's REALLY the best. I guarantee that every Mariusz fan on the planet is now crying foul over this. The strength community is going to be full of "Ostlund's not REALLY the best ... he just won it on a fluke" chatter. Frankly, that's a disservice to Dave ... who had an insane contest any way you look at it.

Sorry ... but this was just a plain stupid idea. I really hope it's the last time we see it.


I agree 100% with this post, this scoring system was designed for americans to win, it was a contest overloaded with americans and manipulated so an american would win.

It is alright making a statement that everyone knew the rules before hand, and everyone has the same chance, but what a complete load of bollocks.

And before any american posts, that all americans are picked on etc etc, it really isnt the case, i believe that if something isnt broke then dont try and fix it.

Super series and WSM in my opinion is biased towards america, and if this carrys on you just might have a WSM contest full of americans, which would result in the europeans going back to another fed.

[Michael Douglas - uk]

The point is Dave won, Marius was second and Jesse was third, we can sit and argue about the points system till the cows come home, either way the end result is the same.


yes, why dont we just have a contest where we keep repeating each event over and over again until an american wins ? that would seem fairer than the new system. It will be interesting to see if the scoring system will be used at WSM, but i doubt it will be, because by that stage 95% of competitors will be american, so your bound to win.

[benjamin d. moore]

It's especially biased towards Americans - look at how many US winners of the WSM there have been in the past 30 years - oh wait...nevermind... :M:

[Paul F.X. Armstrong]

I agree 100% with this post, this scoring system was designed for americans to win, it was a contest overloaded with americans and manipulated so an american would win.

It is alright making a statement that everyone knew the rules before hand, and everyone has the same chance, but what a complete load of bollocks.

And before any american posts, that all americans are picked on etc etc, it really isnt the case, i believe that if something isnt broke then dont try and fix it.

Super series and WSM in my opinion is biased towards america, and if this carrys on you just might have a WSM contest full of americans, which would result in the europeans going back to another fed.

The main contest of this federation is 'The Met RX World's Strongest Man' www.theworldsstrongestman.com/
I hit 'refresh'and marius is still on page one.

Marius ,although he lost WSM 2006 still graces the Worlds Strongest Man website as the "star".
Everytime marius loses his 'stock'goes down.
Somewhere in the marketing department an executive cringes.

Perhaps Phil and Dave don't have the physiques to sell Met RX supplements-?(usually the Met RX ads show up in bodybuilding magazines)but they both have defeated Marius who is marketed as Met Rx's 'superman'.
I don't think the MAIN sponsor of Met RX's World's Strongest Man show is going to 'fix'anything in Phil or Dave's favor.
They want Marius to win---IMHO they just never even imagined that he would ever lose.

[CHANTZWILSON]

The main contest of this federation is 'The Met RX World's Strongest Man' www.theworldsstrongestman.com/
I hit 'refresh'and marius is still on page one.

Marius ,although he lost WSM 2006 still graces the Worlds Strongest Man website as the "star".
Everytime marius loses his 'stock'goes down.
Somewhere in the marketing department an executive cringes.

Perhaps Phil and Dave don't have the physiques to sell Met RX supplements-?(usually the Met RX ads ads show up in bodybuilding magazines)but they both have defeated Marius who is marketed as Met Rx's 'superman'.
I don't think the MAIN sponsor of Met RX's World's Strongest Man show is going to 'fix'anything in Phil or Dave's favor.
They want Marius to win---IMHO they just never even imagined that he would ever lose.

I am not always big on conspiracy theories, but there might be something to this. Met RX owns the show, and they are in the business of selling supplements. Maybe they do really want Marius to win, but then again it could just be that Marius is contracted with Met RX and maybe Phil and Dave are not.

[Paul F.X. Armstrong]

I am not always big on conspiracy theories, but there might be something to this. Met RX owns the show, and they are in the business of selling supplements. Maybe they do really want Marius to win, but then again it could just be that Marius is contracted with Met RX and maybe Phil and Dave are not.

I didn't mean it to sound like a conspiracy theory at all.
I don't think anyone would ever 'fix'a contest for Marius or for any athlete.
However,It is logical to think that they would want the athlete they sponsor to win.

--I'm just using this as an example of why they certainly wouldn't fix the contest for Phil or Dave-

IMHO there wouldn't be any benefit to WSMSS or the MET RX WSM to fix any contest for an American.
At this moment it just wouldn't be a logical business move and i actually don't think the org. would ever fix a contest for anyone.

It's not boxing. :p

[Mac Smith]

I agree 100% with this post, this scoring system was designed for americans to win, it was a contest overloaded with americans and manipulated so an american would win.

It is alright making a statement that everyone knew the rules before hand, and everyone has the same chance, but what a complete load of bollocks.

And before any american posts, that all americans are picked on etc etc, it really isnt the case, i believe that if something isnt broke then dont try and fix it.

Super series and WSM in my opinion is biased towards america, and if this carrys on you just might have a WSM contest full of americans, which would result in the europeans going back to another fed.


Before dealing out outlandish accusations, please provide proof of this bias. As far the Venice Beach contest is concerned, no one had an unfair advantage. Since everyone DID know the rules in advance, why is that a load of bollocks? How does knowing the the scoring system and events in advance provide any competitor with an advantage when they are all given the same level of information.

With no disrepect to Terry Hollands because he's a very honorable man, but Mike could your anger be because you feel the UK has been slighted recently in international competition. If that is the case, please provide proof of that as well.

[Michael Douglas - uk]

Before dealing out outlandish accusations, please provide proof of this bias. As far the Venice Beach contest is concerned, no one had an unfair advantage. Since everyone DID know the rules in advance, why is that a load of bollocks? How does knowing the the scoring system and events in advance provide any competitor with an advantage when they are all given the same level of information.

With no disrepect to Terry Hollands because he's a very honorable man, but Mike could your anger be because you feel the UK has been slighted recently in international competition. If that is the case, please provide proof of that as well.

right, if i entered a comp in which the rules were every other competitor scored double point to my single points, that was the rules and i was explained them before i entered the comp does that mean that i wasnt cheated because the rules where explained to me, of course it doesnt !

my comments were based on the fact that marius was imo robbed, and with this scoring system the best man doesnt win.

With regards to the strongman scene in the UK, i will hold my hands up and admit im very jealous of the american strongman scene, but feel that you guys dont do it the justice it deserves, it seems to me that money is the soul motivator with americans and i use phil phister as an example as it was reported on this website that he wanted an appearance fee for ASM,. I could also use another strongman who posts on this site as another example of a guy who said he couldnt compete in ASM because of financial reasons, where as other strongmen have apparantley walked to comps, hitchiked to comps and slept in vans just so they could compete, ASM should be a proud occasion for you guys and it doesnt seem to be the case.
The strongman scene in the UK is not as good as the USA, but we have guys who may lack ability but have dedication and determination, i.e Terry Hollands.

[Scott Markowitz]

right, if i entered a comp in which the rules were every other competitor scored double point to my single points, that was the rules and i was explained them before i entered the comp does that mean that i wasnt cheated because the rules where explained to me, of course it doesnt !


Are you serious?

I always hear about how much the rest of the world hates Americans because of ____ (fill in the blank). From my experience it's always something retarded like the above. That is precisely why I and a lot of other "arrogant Americans" don't give a rat's hind end what the rest of the world thinks.

As far as not being able to afford to get to contests...it's fine to be committed to strongman, but sometimes there are more important things in life (like putting food on the table). That doesn't make one less of a strongman.

[Josh Kamins]

Michael, can you just explain why doubling stones is a bias towards Americans? I haven't quite figured that one out yet. Why is stones an American event despite the fact that Mariusz is known to be one of the best in the world at Stones?

[Arnell Castillo]

uhmmm who the f*#@ cares ! double points or not, just step up and kick butt . won't have to worry about double points.

[Eric Johnson]

I agree 100% with this post, this scoring system was designed for americans to win, it was a contest overloaded with americans and manipulated so an american would win.

It is alright making a statement that everyone knew the rules before hand, and everyone has the same chance, but what a complete load of bollocks.

And before any american posts, that all americans are picked on etc etc, it really isnt the case, i believe that if something isnt broke then dont try and fix it.

Super series and WSM in my opinion is biased towards america, and if this carrys on you just might have a WSM contest full of americans, which would result in the europeans going back to another fed.

Please explain you logic, how was the scoring system designed for americans to win? It wasn't changed going into the last event. If you look at all the contests with Pudz against Jesse or Dave, tell me who won stones the most? OK I will answer for you, Pudz has beat Jesse and Dave on the stones more than the other way around. So if you look at those numbers it sounds like it was set up for Pudz to win, not us stupid Americans. But what the F&*K do I know I think us Americans are better than everybody else right????????????

[Steve Kirit]

It could be said that winning is about positioning yourself to seize an opportunity if it should present itself. regardless of opinion, Dave was in a damn good spot going into that event.

All this talk could be considered moot. There is no real regulation in this sport and therefore promoters will continue to have room to bend rules and make up scoring systems as they see fit

That being said, however, congratulations to D.O. KG and MP, and especially Jesse for doing so well right after labor.

[Mac Smith]

right, if i entered a comp in which the rules were every other competitor scored double point to my single points, that was the rules and i was explained them before i entered the comp does that mean that i wasnt cheated because the rules where explained to me, of course it doesnt !

my comments were based on the fact that marius was imo robbed, and with this scoring system the best man doesnt win.




But that isn't what happened. He recieved the same scoring as everyone else. The fact remains, Mariusz finished fifth in the stones, which caused him the loss. Nothing in this or any other competition is favored towards a certain country. Like stated before Mariusz is the face of strongman, no matter the organization. There was no bias. This was a fair contest. No matter how the scoring was done, EVERYONE was aware of it. Nobody was scored differently from anyone else. If Mariusz would have finished in the top three (I believe) he would have won the entire contest. Again, he finished 5th, that is what caused him to lose.

[Billy Wolt]

But that isn't what happened. He recieved the same scoring as everyone else. The fact remains, Mariusz finished fifth in the stones, which caused him the loss. Nothing in this or any other competition is favored towards a certain country. Like stated before Mariusz is the face of strongman, no matter the organization. There was no bias. This was a fair contest. No matter how the scoring was done, EVERYONE was aware of it. Nobody was scored differently from anyone else. If Mariusz would have finished in the top three (I believe) he would have won the entire contest. Again, he finished 5th, that is what caused him to lose.


i don't get the whole bias arguement,

but if the scoring was consistent (ie, only 1 pt between placings, not 2) mariuz would have won regardless of his 5th place in stones.

oh well...WSM is going to be competitive this year.

[DaneGarreau]

All this talk could be considered moot. There is no real regulation in this sport and therefore promoters will continue to have room to bend rules and make up scoring systems as they see fit



I think Steve brings up a good point.

I see a lot of people on here saying things like "double points or not, just step up and kick butt". While that is all well and fine there has to be a line drawn somewhere. Does this mean triple points are ok?

[Scott Markowitz]

Does this mean triple points are ok?

I think so long as 1) it's on a somewhat standard event (i.e., not a one handed powerstairs with a throw for distance from the top stair or something like that) and 2) it's known beforehand (esp. long enough beforehand that it can factor into the decision as to whether or not to do a show) then sure, why not? If competitors don't like it, they won't enter and the promoters who have "regular" scoring will have more successful shows. The others will either change back to regular scoring or eventually stop promoting shows.

But then again, I think the free market is a good thing. :mag:

[Adam Keep]

right, if i entered a comp in which the rules were every other competitor scored double point to my single points, that was the rules and i was explained them before i entered the comp does that mean that i wasnt cheated because the rules where explained to me, of course it doesnt !

my comments were based on the fact that marius was imo robbed, and with this scoring system the best man doesnt win.

With regards to the strongman scene in the UK, i will hold my hands up and admit im very jealous of the american strongman scene, but feel that you guys dont do it the justice it deserves, it seems to me that money is the soul motivator with americans and i use phil phister as an example as it was reported on this website that he wanted an appearance fee for ASM,. I could also use another strongman who posts on this site as another example of a guy who said he couldnt compete in ASM because of financial reasons, where as other strongmen have apparantley walked to comps, hitchiked to comps and slept in vans just so they could compete, ASM should be a proud occasion for you guys and it doesnt seem to be the case.
The strongman scene in the UK is not as good as the USA, but we have guys who may lack ability but have dedication and determination, i.e Terry Hollands.


Who cares if someone gets an appearance fee. Pudz gets an appearance fee everytime he competes, but that is okay because he is not an American right? I have never heard of someone so full of crap as you dude. It was not tailored towards an American. It was acontest held in the US yes, but there were really good dudes from all over that just couldn't put it together that day. Honestly though, the contest should be geared towards an American if we ever want this sport to go anywhere. People like Big Z with zero personality can be champions a hundred times over, but no one outside of the actual competitors in this sport will care. We need people with character and a name we can all pronounce. There is such a bigger market for new sports in America and if this sport is to suceed it will have to suceed in the US. I mean look at it this way, there are hundreds of competitors in the am and pro classes in the US, which is almost more than the population of Lithuania! As I said before, Big Z is not going to make money for the sport, lively Americans is what will sell the supplements and advertisements and bring more people to contests. Dave won the contest fair and square. There were more points given for the stones, but those points could have gone to anybody. If Mariusz would have stepped it up, he could have won, but he didn't and lost which is all part of the game.

It is time for you to chill out with the American hating dude. We may have spawned our country from yours, but don't forget that we could take those crumpets away from you in a New York minute. :D

[Michael Douglas - uk]

But that isn't what happened. He recieved the same scoring as everyone else. The fact remains, Mariusz finished fifth in the stones, which caused him the loss. Nothing in this or any other competition is favored towards a certain country. Like stated before Mariusz is the face of strongman, no matter the organization. There was no bias. This was a fair contest. No matter how the scoring was done, EVERYONE was aware of it. Nobody was scored differently from anyone else. If Mariusz would have finished in the top three (I believe) he would have won the entire contest. Again, he finished 5th, that is what caused him to lose.


First of all, im going to give all americans a big cuddle and a pat on the head, please dont turn this discussion into the whole world hates amercians, and everybody picks on us because it just isnt the case and im really bored with you guys using that statergy as a defence to any post that dares to disagree with peoples comments.

Lets get this thing cleared up, firstly the rules have been changed, i accept that everyone is governed by the same rules and you could argue that nobody in the comp was given an unfair advantage because of this reason. However the rules have been changed and the best man on the day didnt win because of this rule change and under the old rules he would have won. If the guy who won the comp is telling you lot that the new rules stink, then come on guys its wrong.

[Michael Douglas - uk]

I think so long as 1) it's on a somewhat standard event (i.e., not a one handed powerstairs with a throw for distance from the top stair or something like that) and 2) it's known beforehand (esp. long enough beforehand that it can factor into the decision as to whether or not to do a show) then sure, why not? If competitors don't like it, they won't enter and the promoters who have "regular" scoring will have more successful shows. The others will either change back to regular scoring or eventually stop promoting shows.

But then again, I think the free market is a good thing. :mag:


Are you saying that its ok to change the rules on a popular event, i,e stones and not on powerstairs ?

[Adam Keep]

Are you saying that its ok to change the rules on a popular event, i,e stones and not on powerstairs ?

You are so lost aren't you?

[Michael Douglas - uk]

Michael, can you just explain why doubling stones is a bias towards Americans? I haven't quite figured that one out yet. Why is stones an American event despite the fact that Mariusz is known to be one of the best in the world at Stones?


Be honest here mate, if you were going to frig an event in a competition that contains jesse and dave and this event was going to be near the end of a comp and could give other athletes the chance to catch up or even win the event, then what event would you pick ?

STONES !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[Michael Douglas - uk]

Are you serious?

I always hear about how much the rest of the world hates Americans because of ____ (fill in the blank). From my experience it's always something retarded like the above. That is precisely why I and a lot of other "arrogant Americans" don't give a rat's hind end what the rest of the world thinks.

As far as not being able to afford to get to contests...it's fine to be committed to strongman, but sometimes there are more important things in life (like putting food on the table). That doesn't make one less of a strongman.


I fully accept that putting the steam on the table and the clothes on the kids backs should always be the number 1 priority thats a given and if any strongman had to miss a comp because of this reason the fair play, but is this likely to be the case ? come on your talking about ASM !!!!!

[Eric Johnson]

Be honest here mate, if you were going to frig an event in a competition that contains jesse and dave and this event was going to be near the end of a comp and could give other athletes the chance to catch up or even win the event, then what event would you pick ?

STONES !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Dude come on, do your research, Pudz beats Jesse and Dave at stones more than the other way around, so how does your logic make sense??

[CHANTZWILSON]

Be honest here mate, if you were going to frig an event in a competition that contains jesse and dave and this event was going to be near the end of a comp and could give other athletes the chance to catch up or even win the event, then what event would you pick ?

STONES !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


Maybe to an extremely high platform. Dave and Jesse are considerably taller than Marius, but other than that Marius is a pretty good stone handler.
Has anyone noticed that Phil and Dave both won against Marius on the stones?

[Michael Douglas - uk]

Who cares if someone gets an appearance fee. Pudz gets an appearance fee everytime he competes, but that is okay because he is not an American right? I have never heard of someone so full of crap as you dude. It was not tailored towards an American. It was acontest held in the US yes, but there were really good dudes from all over that just couldn't put it together that day. Honestly though, the contest should be geared towards an American if we ever want this sport to go anywhere. People like Big Z with zero personality can be champions a hundred times over, but no one outside of the actual competitors in this sport will care. We need people with character and a name we can all pronounce. There is such a bigger market for new sports in America and if this sport is to suceed it will have to suceed in the US. I mean look at it this way, there are hundreds of competitors in the am and pro classes in the US, which is almost more than the population of Lithuania! As I said before, Big Z is not going to make money for the sport, lively Americans is what will sell the supplements and advertisements and bring more people to contests. Dave won the contest fair and square. There were more points given for the stones, but those points could have gone to anybody. If Mariusz would have stepped it up, he could have won, but he didn't and lost which is all part of the game.

It is time for you to chill out with the American hating dude. We may have spawned our country from yours, but don't forget that we could take those crumpets away from you in a New York minute. :D


Thats cool, im going to start and compete in strongman because using your philosphy, i wouldnt have to be strong or smash records like Big Z, i could just stand on a stage rip my t-shirt off and tell the crowd a few jokes. Just make sure I had a decent set of abs and a big pair of biceps and then I will be a champion.

Selling supplements is for body builders, not strongmen !

I dont hate americans, as usual its anti-america paranoia.

Dont the alarm bells start ringing in your head, when the american winner of the shows tells you its wrong and he strongly disagrees with the rules.

[Michael Douglas - uk]

Dude come on, do your research, Pudz beats Jesse and Dave at stones more than the other way around, so how does your logic make sense??


Ok then, i will use you for my research, if you had to pick an event that both dave and jesse could match or even beat marius at then which one would you pick ?

Stones !

[RyanWilson]

...it was a contest overloaded with americans and manipulated so an american would win.

Well, the contest was held in the USA, and unless we plan on a forced integration of only a certain number of people from each country that can compete at an event to have a spread of different nationalities by necessity, there's bound to be more people from that geographic region at that contest. Somehow, when competitions are held in Europe I don't see a roster of primarily Americans, so it's pretty silly to not take location into consideration. Maybe we can complain that ASM was too heavy on the Americans and geared toward and American to win as well? :D

[Adam Keep]

Thats cool, im going to start and compete in strongman because using your philosphy, i wouldnt have to be strong or smash records like Big Z, i could just stand on a stage rip my t-shirt off and tell the crowd a few jokes. Just make sure I had a decent set of abs and a big pair of biceps and then I will be a champion.

Selling supplements is for body builders, not strongmen !

I dont hate americans, as usual its anti-america paranoia.

Dont the alarm bells start ringing in your head, when the american winner of the shows tells you its wrong and he strongly disagrees with the rules.

Selling supplements is for the fitness industry which includes strongman. We all can benefit from the publicity.

Money is made in the sports industry from the fans. People don't want to look like or spend money to see guys like Big Z. I still think he deserves to be the champion, but he will make no money for the industry.

I don't the scoring system was all that bad. I do think it is funny that the only one to contest the rule was Dave and it ended up helping him. Pudz did not win because he placed low on the stones. If you want to be a champ you have to place well in all the events. For Pudz on that day it just wasn't meant to be.

[Michael Douglas - uk]

Who cares if someone gets an appearance fee. Pudz gets an appearance fee everytime he competes, but that is okay because he is not an American right? I have never heard of someone so full of crap as you dude. It was not tailored towards an American. It was acontest held in the US yes, but there were really good dudes from all over that just couldn't put it together that day. Honestly though, the contest should be geared towards an American if we ever want this sport to go anywhere. People like Big Z with zero personality can be champions a hundred times over, but no one outside of the actual competitors in this sport will care. We need people with character and a name we can all pronounce. There is such a bigger market for new sports in America and if this sport is to suceed it will have to suceed in the US. I mean look at it this way, there are hundreds of competitors in the am and pro classes in the US, which is almost more than the population of Lithuania! As I said before, Big Z is not going to make money for the sport, lively Americans is what will sell the supplements and advertisements and bring more people to contests. Dave won the contest fair and square. There were more points given for the stones, but those points could have gone to anybody. If Mariusz would have stepped it up, he could have won, but he didn't and lost which is all part of the game.

It is time for you to chill out with the American hating dude. We may have spawned our country from yours, but don't forget that we could take those crumpets away from you in a New York minute. :D


New sports in America are you refering to strongman ?

somebody has just pointed out that in 30 years americans have rules the roost when it comes to WSM.


Im wondering if you actually know anything about strongman ?

[CHANTZWILSON]

Thats cool, im going to start and compete in strongman because using your philosphy, i wouldnt have to be strong or smash records like Big Z, i could just stand on a stage rip my t-shirt off and tell the crowd a few jokes. Just make sure I had a decent set of abs and a big pair of biceps and then I will be a champion.

Selling supplements is for body builders, not strongmen !

I dont hate americans, as usual its anti-america paranoia.

Dont the alarm bells start ringing in your head, when the american winner of the shows tells you its wrong and he strongly disagrees with the rules.


Most people have not discredited that those particular rules were wrong. It is the anti-American accusations spewing from you that we are referring to. I think the scoring was "rubbish", but Dave still beat Marius. Dave is not the one that made up those rules. Honestly, (this is no dis on Dave) few people would have thought that he would have won. The majority would have said Marius before or after hearing of how the scoring would be.
That being said...did you ever consider that the majority of the competitors were American because the contest was held on American soil?

[Michael Douglas - uk]

Selling supplements is for the fitness industry which includes strongman. We all can benefit from the publicity.

I don't the scoring system was all that bad. I do think it is funny that the only one to contest the rule was Dave and it ended up helping him. Pudz did not win because he placed low on the stones. If you want to be a champ you have to place well in all the events. For Pudz on that day it just wasn't meant to be.


Your wrong mate, you can actually be a champ without winning any event and placing low in an event, as we have all seen in the past, unless of course the rules are changed - hence my point.

Maybe Dave realised that when the rules were explained and stones where the last event he would be able to win or place highly in this comp.

[Mac Smith]

. [B]We need people with character and a name we can all pronounce[/B. :D

Careful with statements like this Adam. Some will take this statement the wrong way. Remember Kazmeier (I don't even know if I spelled that correctly) and Pfister, as well as Marunde aren't the easiest names for some.

[Adam Keep]

New sports in America are you refering to strongman ?

somebody has just pointed out that in 30 years americans have rules the roost when it comes to WSM.


Im wondering if you actually know anything about strongman ?

I'm a pro, I think I know a little bit. Thanks for trying though Mike.

[Michael Douglas - uk]

Selling supplements is for the fitness industry which includes strongman. We all can benefit from the publicity.

Money is made in the sports industry from the fans. People don't want to look like or spend money to see guys like Big Z. I still think he deserves to be the champion, but he will make no money for the industry.

I don't the scoring system was all that bad. I do think it is funny that the only one to contest the rule was Dave and it ended up helping him. Pudz did not win because he placed low on the stones. If you want to be a champ you have to place well in all the events. For Pudz on that day it just wasn't meant to be.


Im sorry but if you dont want to pay money to see Big Z then your in the wrong sport, what you guys are saying is that you want to see a body building contest, it doesnt matter if your muscle is functional as long as it looks good.

All this talk of Big Z stems from Jesses comments he made about Big Z having the personality of a gold fish and being fat.

[Dave Ostlund]

Be honest here mate, if you were going to frig an event in a competition that contains jesse and dave and this event was going to be near the end of a comp and could give other athletes the chance to catch up or even win the event, then what event would you pick ?

STONES !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


Personally I would pick fingal fingers or fishing pole deadlift for max. I feel way more confident that I could beat Mariusz on those than on stones. I'm pretty sure Jesse would pick the same.

[Michael Douglas - uk]

I'm a pro, I think I know a little bit. Thanks for trying though Mike.


ok then, maybe if you guys dominate the sport for another 20/30 years then strongman may get recognised.

[CHANTZWILSON]

I'm a pro, I think I know a little bit. Thanks for trying though Mike.


That was a pretty good reply. Mike what is your background? I admit my knowledge of doing the events is limited, but I have been following it for 10 years.

[Adam Keep]

Im sorry but if you dont want to pay money to see Big Z then your in the wrong sport, what you guys are saying is that you want to see a body building contest, it doesnt matter if your muscle is functional as long as it looks good.

All this talk of Big Z stems from Jesses comments he made about Big Z having the personality of a gold fish and being fat.

Of course I would pay money to see Big Z compete, I will be competing at the same contest as him this weekend. I am saying that the average person wouldn't want to.

[Michael Douglas - uk]

Personally I would pick fingal fingers or fishing pole deadlift for max. I feel way more confident that I could beat Mariusz on those than on stones. I'm pretty sure Jesse would pick the same.


Well what can i say ?????????? looks like im the bad guy again.

[CHANTZWILSON]

Personally I would pick fingal fingers or fishing pole deadlift for max. I feel way more confident that I could beat Mariusz on those than on stones. I'm pretty sure Jesse would pick the same.


Fingal Fingers. Man I was trying to think of an event that would really push Dave and Jesse over and it would definitely be fingal fingers.

[Adam Keep]

ok then, maybe if you guys dominate the sport for another 20/30 years then strongman may get recognised.

I don't think it will take anywhere near that to make the sport better. We need to have a few good placings at the worlds and some supplement contracts and maybe a magazine cover or two and the sport will grow by leaps and bounds.

[Eric Johnson]

Ok then, i will use you for my research, if you had to pick an event that both dave and jesse could match or even beat marius at then which one would you pick ?

Stones !

Please see Dave Ostlund's answer on this as he affirmed what I was thinking. Nice try reversing the logic in the question though.

[Michael Douglas - uk]

Please see Dave Ostlund's answer on this as he affirmed what I was thinking. Nice try reversing the logic in the question though.


yes mate, im sure you were going to say exactly the same thing just he beat you too it. jolly good.

[CHANTZWILSON]

Im sorry but if you dont want to pay money to see Big Z then your in the wrong sport, what you guys are saying is that you want to see a body building contest, it doesnt matter if your muscle is functional as long as it looks good.

All this talk of Big Z stems from Jesses comments he made about Big Z having the personality of a gold fish and being fat.


I never said that I didn't want to see Big Z. I think he is extremely strong, but since I don't speak his language or have much of a chance of seeing him here, it is not as exciting as following someone like Jesse, Dave, Travis, The Kevin Nee, or other top pros.

These are all people that not only I have a chance of meeting, but they also open themselves up to their fans. This board is a prime example. I have had responses to my posts from 3 of those listed above and I have only been an active member for a little over a month. Zadrunis (sp) or Marius, I have seen or heard nothing from.

So, why would I root for Big Z, when I can root for Dave and then after Dave wins a contest, he comes online and talks about what he experienced. It doesn't get much better than that.

[Eric Johnson]

yes mate, im sure you were going to say exactly the same thing just he beat you too it. jolly good.

Not that anything I have to say will convince you, as you have ignored some very good arguements in this thread. Dave and Jesse both being 5+ inches taller than Marius, I would pick fingal fingers evertime, oh ya and the fact that Jesse destroyed Pudz in this event at WSM.

[Paul F.X. Armstrong]

Ulf Bengtsson,former bodybuilder and European competitor is the president of WCE ---the group that control's the WSMSS.
I thought WSMSS is ultimately responsible for the rule changes-?- and Ulf is not an American citizen.

[Michael Douglas - uk]

I never said that I didn't want to see Big Z. I think he is extremely strong, but since I don't speak his language or have much of a chance of seeing him here, it is not as exciting as following someone like Jesse, Dave, Travis, The Kevin Nee, or other top pros.

These are all people that not only I have a chance of meeting, but they also open themselves up to their fans. This board is a prime example. I have had responses to my posts from 3 of those listed above and I have only been an active member for a little over a month. Zadrunis (sp) or Marius, I have seen or heard nothing from.

So, why would I root for Big Z, when I can root for Dave and then after Dave wins a contest, he comes online and talks about what he experienced. It doesn't get much better than that.


Yes i can see your point, i also like it when strongmen come on the board and post, it shows us what goes on behind the scenes and we all love that, but what your saying is that your quite prepared not to watch the strongest and best in the world, and you would settle for second best, and as a strongman fan, im only interested in seeing the best compete against the best, and thats maybe why im the bad guy because i cant understand how you guys love and praise the guys who havent won anything as opposed to the guys who are the best.

However just because a guy doesnt post on here doesnt necessarily mean he doesnt open up to fans or even appreiate the fans. for example big Z at the arnolds where he comes back for the fans and breaks the deadlift WR, that shows me the man cares as this contest means a shit load of money for him and he is risking injury and prize money. The strongmen who you mention, if they did this then everybody would be high fiveing them and the posts would come in just how great they are, maybe big z doesnt speak english as good as others.

Why would big Z or Marius post on a board that they dont get the respect they deserve ?

Lets also look at viristruk, not exactly Mr personality is he ? but because he wasnt described as a gold fish or being fat, nobody has a bad word to say.

[Michael Douglas - uk]

Not that anything I have to say will convince you, as you have ignored some very good arguements in this thread. Dave and Jesse both being 5+ inches taller than Marius, I would pick fingal fingers evertime, oh ya and the fact that Jesse destroyed Pudz in this event at WSM.

I havent ignored anyones arguments, i am posting my opinion the same way as your posting yours, i dont respect you or what your saying.

[ADAMBAUER]

Michael are you taking issue with the fact that an American beat Marius? What if it came down to a non American vs. Marius in the final event? If its the rules you have issues with take it up with Jesper and the rest of the guys at WSMSS. Don't try to diminish what Dave did. Yes Dave spoke out against the scoring, but ultimately it worked to his benefit, what if the roles were reversed? To my understanding he still doesn't agree with the scoring system but it is what it is. These guys, IFSA and WSM, are the best in the sport regardless of what nation the are from. There are some of us here in the states that can only dream about reaching the heights that Dave, Jesse, Travis, Kevin, Don, Phil, Karl and the rest of the Americans in the upper eschelon of the sport have reached. IFAS vs. WSM, Americans vs. The world, who cares! We are in it for the same reasons we love the sport. And yeah we are proud of our American competitors, just like other nations are proud of theirs! Also, shy of endorsements, money to made in most show is nil in my understanding, so to ask for an appearance fee does not seem all that bad.
Lastly, we all have our favorites, All the Americans are mine because I can identify with them in some aspects. I like watching Marius compete he always seems to bring everyone else to the next level, but I will always cheer for an American if they have a chance or not. I don't care if Jesse, Dave, Kevin or Phil is deadlast in points and going up against Marius or Mark Felix or anyone else, I will cheer for the American. Sorry its just they way I am
To quote Forrest Gump " Thats all I gotta say about that"

[CHANTZWILSON]

Yes i can see your point, i also like it when strongmen come on the board and post, it shows us what goes on behind the scenes and we all love that, but what your saying is that your quite prepared not to watch the strongest and best in the world, and you would settle for second best, and as a strongman fan, im only interested in seeing the best compete against the best, and thats maybe why im the bad guy because i cant understand how you guys love and praise the guys who havent won anything as opposed to the guys who are the best.

However just because a guy doesnt post on here doesnt necessarily mean he doesnt open up to fans or even appreiate the fans. for example big Z at the arnolds where he comes back for the fans and breaks the deadlift WR, that shows me the man cares as this contest means a shit load of money for him and he is risking injury and prize money. The strongmen who you mention, if they did this then everybody would be high fiveing them and the posts would come in just how great they are, maybe big z doesnt speak english as good as others.

Why would big Z or Marius post on a board that they dont get the respect they deserve ?

Lets also look at viristruk, not exactly Mr personality is he ? but because he wasnt described as a gold fish or being fat, nobody has a bad word to say.

First of all, thank you for finally acknowledging that someone other than yourself can make a good point.
Next, I never said that I don't like to watch Big Z. Do you know who my favorite strongman of all time is? Jon Pall. Not exactly an American. Zadrunis is awesome, but I choose to follow those who make it easier to follow. I can follow Dave Ostlund because he makes himself available to follow.

One of my points was that the language barrier is a reason that I don't follow some of the international stars as much. A conversation with Zadrunis or Marius would be extremely difficult. That doesn't take away from their abilities. They are both awesome. I just like Dave and Kevin better. That is my opinion.

All that being said, Dave still beat Marius within rules that were made without Dave's input. You even acknowledged that Dave disagreed with the scoring. The fact remains, had Marius done better he would have won. He didn't, and truly I think that is the main thing that you need to realize.

[Eric Johnson]

I havent ignored anyones arguments, i am posting my opinion the same way as your posting yours, i dont respect you or what your saying.

Hahahahaha nice, thanks that made my week :mag:.

[Scott Markowitz]

Actually I disagree with the assessment of Z as a wet fish. I got to meet him in Tulsa, and although he was obviously tired, and his English wasn't great, he was friendly and somewhat talkative. He's not as demonstrative as some, but he does get fired up on occasion.

That said, I don't think anyone has said they don't want to see Zydrunas or Maruisz compete and do well. For the average person (who probably doesn't even know this forum exists) they would rather see someone who "looks" strong than someone who *is* strong. Not having visible abs myself, it would be hypocritical of me to make my decisions as to who I'll go see based on that.

I think maybe you're confusing respect for accomplishments (which I think everyone here respects Zydrunas, Mariusz, Vasyl, and anyone else who competes and does well) with who we *want* to do well. That's why the Cubs have fans, and why the Red Sox had fans for the eighty years or so they were cursed.

[CHANTZWILSON]

Actually I disagree with the assessment of Z as a wet fish. I got to meet him in Tulsa, and although he was obviously tired, and his English wasn't great, he was friendly and somewhat talkative. He's not as demonstrative as some, but he does get fired up on occasion.

That said, I don't think anyone has said they don't want to see Zydrunas or Maruisz compete and do well. For the average person (who probably doesn't even know this forum exists) they would rather see someone who "looks" strong than someone who *is* strong. Not having visible abs myself, it would be hypocritical of me to make my decisions as to who I'll go see based on that.

I think maybe you're confusing respect for accomplishments (which I think everyone here respects Zydrunas, Mariusz, Vasyl, and anyone else who competes and does well) with who we *want* to do well. That's why the Cubs have fans, and why the Red Sox had fans for the eighty years or so they were cursed.

Scott,
I think you hit the nail on the head. That is one of the biggest reasons for having sports; is so we can root for who we want. I also agree with the Zadrunis thing. I would love to meet him, or any of the top pros. I don't care who they are.

[Michael Douglas - uk]

Michael are you taking issue with the fact that an American beat Marius? What if it came down to a non American vs. Marius in the final event? If its the rules you have issues with take it up with Jesper and the rest of the guys at WSMSS. Don't try to diminish what Dave did. Yes Dave spoke out against the scoring, but ultimately it worked to his benefit, what if the roles were reversed? To my understanding he still doesn't agree with the scoring system but it is what it is. These guys, IFSA and WSM, are the best in the sport regardless of what nation the are from. There are some of us here in the states that can only dream about reaching the heights that Dave, Jesse, Travis, Kevin, Don, Phil, Karl and the rest of the Americans in the upper eschelon of the sport have reached. IFAS vs. WSM, Americans vs. The world, who cares! We are in it for the same reasons we love the sport. And yeah we are proud of our American competitors, just like other nations are proud of theirs! Also, shy of endorsements, money to made in most show is nil in my understanding, so to ask for an appearance fee does not seem all that bad.
To quote Forrest Gump " Thats all I gotta say about that"

Im not trying to knock what dave did, the same as i wasnt knocking phister when he won WSM, and im not knocking Poundstone for winning ASM, my argument was that the rule change is wrong. But for some reason what ever i type is read by you guys as being I HATE AMERICANS,

Let me sumarise this topic because im not not going to win and im vastly out numbered and i accept defeat.

The rule change has allowed people to have doubts over whether dave would have won, and everyone on this board whether they admit it or not will have these doubts. So to be fair it has robbed Dave O.

WSM was won by phister, but because of the split, once again people could argue. So this robbed Phil.

ASM was won by Poundstone, but because certain strongman chose not to compete, this robbed Poundstone

The rule change has allowed people like me to argue with people like you, and thats wrong because we dont have an undisputed champ or in this case competition winner.

The goal posts have been moved, and you guys asked me would i be different if a european won the comp, then maybe i wouldnt or maybe i would. But if the boot was on the other foot and jesse or dave was winning until the last event and then Terry or Marius won the stones and the comp, each and every one of you would probably be saying what im saying now.

Ps - I love America

[CHANTZWILSON]

Ps - I love America


And that just made my week.

[Michael Douglas - uk]

First of all, thank you for finally acknowledging that someone other than yourself can make a good point.
Next, I never said that I don't like to watch Big Z. Do you know who my favorite strongman of all time is? Jon Pall. Not exactly an American. Zadrunis is awesome, but I choose to follow those who make it easier to follow. I can follow Dave Ostlund because he makes himself available to follow.

One of my points was that the language barrier is a reason that I don't follow some of the international stars as much. A conversation with Zadrunis or Marius would be extremely difficult. That doesn't take away from their abilities. They are both awesome. I just like Dave and Kevin better. That is my opinion.

All that being said, Dave still beat Marius within rules that were made without Dave's input. You even acknowledged that Dave disagreed with the scoring. The fact remains, had Marius done better he would have won. He didn't, and truly I think that is the main thing that you need to realize.

I didnt say your point was good, i just said i could see your point.

[ADAMBAUER]

Ps - I love America

So do I! Thats why I take pride in ALL our athletes.

[Eric Johnson]

Im not trying to knock what dave did, the same as i wasnt knocking phister when he won WSM, and im not knocking Poundstone for winning ASM, my argument was that the rule change is wrong. But for some reason what ever i type is read by you guys as being I HATE AMERICANS,......

You mean what ever you typed like this:

I agree 100% with this post, this scoring system was designed for americans to win, it was a contest overloaded with americans and manipulated so an american would win.

It is alright making a statement that everyone knew the rules before hand, and everyone has the same chance, but what a complete load of bollocks.

[CHANTZWILSON]

I didnt say your point was good, i just said i could see your point.


And there is goes. I was actually giving you a compliment of sorts and you ruin it. Negative points to you.

[Michael Douglas - uk]

you guys can root for who ever you want regardless of whether they are any good, but if i post my opinion on this site, then im wrong and the bad guy. :BB:

if i was to say i didnt rate dave, nee, etc and i thought that Big Z is the best in the world, then it would probably lead to a big argument, i would get a message telling me to watch my comments and a right slagging off from you guys, but its ok for you guys to support who ever you like.

someone do me a favour and kick me off this forum, as im quite addicted to it now, otherwise i would do it myself.

Ps - god bless america.

[CHANTZWILSON]

So do I! Thats why I take pride in ALL our athletes.


Exactly, people are making it out to be bad to root for you fellow countrymen. I don't see anything wrong with rooting for Marius, so why have a problem with rooting for Kevin?

[Michael Douglas - uk]

And there is goes. I was actually giving you a compliment of sorts and you ruin it. Negative points to you.

come on wind your neck in, it was meant to be a joke.

[ADAMBAUER]

So you post that Big Z is the best in the world, I would disagree but reconize that you have your opinion, as would most everyone else, heck there are those of us here in the states that can't even agree who the best American is! LOL Point is we all have opinions and we will not always agree. I really done this time.

[Eric Johnson]

you guys can root for who ever you want regardless of whether they are any good, but if i post my opinion on this site, then im wrong and the bad guy. :BB:

if i was to say i didnt rate dave, nee, etc and i thought that Big Z is the best in the world, then it would probably lead to a big argument, i would get a message telling me to watch my comments and a right slagging off from you guys, but its ok for you guys to support who ever you like.

someone do me a favour and kick me off this forum, as im quite addicted to it now, otherwise i would do it myself.

Ps - god bless america.

You did not post an opinion, an opion would have been, "I don't agree with the new scoring system that WSMSS is using this year, purely for TV ratings." I would have agreed with that. Instead you make an accusation of "this scoring system was designed for americans to win, it was a contest overloaded with americans and manipulated so an american would win."

That is why the hostility exists. There is a difference in opinions and false accusations.

[Michael Douglas - uk]

You mean what ever you typed like this:


It was a contest overloaded with americans, i accept it was in america so its tradition to have some home grown talent present, but ive just been watching last years russian ss, which contained 3 russians, how many americans did this ss event have in it, someone lend me some more fingers so i can count.

The rules were changed imo to encourage the possibility of marius being beaten, i accept i could be wrong, but unless the comp organises come on and explain the real reason for the rule change and not the shite about it being good for tv then i think im right.

Once again, just so you understand the guy who won the comp said the rules where complete bollock, and thats all im saying.

[CHANTZWILSON]

how many americans did this ss event have in it, someone lend me some more fingers so i can count.

The rules were changed imo to encourage the possibility of marius being beaten, i accept i could be wrong, but unless the comp organises come on and explain the real reason for the rule change and not the shite about it being good for tv then i think im right.

Once again, just so you understand the guy who won the comp said the rules where complete bollock, and thats all im saying.

You need to have fingers to count? Sorry, I could resist. (I am an accountant)

Right remember that Dave IS the guy who won the event. I don't agree with the scoring, but they were told ahead of time. Marius should have calculated better and not gotten fifth in the stones if he wanted to win.

But, Michael, don't worry. I am sure it will be several more contests before Marius makes another misstep. The man is a machine (this remark is a remark of respect for Marius)

[Michael Douglas - uk]

You need to have fingers to count? Sorry, I could resist. (I am an accountant)

Right remember that Dave IS the guy who won the event. I don't agree with the scoring, but they were told ahead of time. Marius should have calculated better and not gotten fifth in the stones if he wanted to win.

But, Michael, don't worry. I am sure it will be several more contests before Marius makes another misstep. The man is a machine (this remark is a remark of respect for Marius)

yes mate (im not an accountant)

and if marius is beaten by an american or anyone else under the old proper scoring system, then i will buy some stars and stripes boxer shorts and wear them every day. But if hes beaten under the new scoring system, then im back for round 2. (Unless its terry and then im going to post several high fives for him).

[Eric Johnson]

......The rules were changed imo to encourage the possibility of marius being beaten, i accept i could be wrong, but unless the comp organises come on and explain the real reason for the rule change and not the shite about it being good for tv then i think im right.....

See now that is an opinion and I can respect it, not agree with it, but respect it. I live in a capitalistic world, and money makes the world go 'round. Most of the money to be made from a WSMSS contest is in the TV rights (that is comercials) not who won or even the attendance at the show. So I can see how the WSMSS organization would be looking to make the shows more exciting for TV, but not to the extent that they would try to fix the events so that an American would win, they are not even an American based company.

[Michael Douglas - uk]

See now that is an opinion and I can respect it, not agree with it, but respect it. I live in a capitalistic world, and money makes the world go 'round. Most of the money to be made from a WSMSS contest is in the TV rights (that is comercials) not who won or even the attendance at the show. So I can see how the WSMSS organization would be looking to make the shows more exciting for TV, but not to the extent that they would try to fix the events so that an American would win, they are not even an American based company.

Thats where we differ then, because i dont respect anything you have said, every question you have asked me, or every point you have asked me to explain you have provided the answers with your own posts ?????? which makes me think that you actually agree with what im saying, just that you dont have the minerals to back me up.

It might not be an american based company, but american is deemed to be the place where the money is, the whole thing is wrong and you know it mate.

[Eric Johnson]

Thats where we differ then, because i dont respect anything you have said, every question you have asked me, or every point you have asked me to explain you have provided the answers with your own posts ?????? which makes me think that you actually agree with what im saying, just that you dont have the minerals to back me up.

Not true, go back and review the thread, my first few questions you rephrased the question back to me and didn't really answer it, so I figured I might as well answer them for you now. My first question about the event being for an american you threw back at me and Dave Ostlund was nice enough to answer it and you were rude to him.

So apperantly anyone who asks you to back up your outlandish claims is not worthy of your respect? Sounds like the stance of someone who knows they are wrong and cant back up thier claims.

It might not be an american based company, but american is deemed to be the place where the money is, the whole thing is wrong and you know it mate.

I have already stated that I don't agree with the scoring. I what I don't agree with is your whole it was rigged for an American to win it point of view.