Andy Bolton:Greatest Powerlifter Ever?

[Anthony Cissell]

Had some sort of epiphany earlier today. If/When Andy breaks the inhuman total of 3000 in competition, would he be considered the greatest powerlifter ever? I mean granted there are two 1000 benchers in Big Gene and Mendy, several 1000 squatters, 1100 squatters, but only a handful of 1200 squatters really (the lifts credibility is questioned but...) and of course lets not forget he is the only person to deadlift 1000 in competition. So would you consider him the greatest powerlifter ever and if not him, then who?

[Derek Binford]

Garry Frank.

Garry hit 2800 years ago and i still believe holds the world record in the total.

[davebeers]

Garry Frank.

Garry hit 2800 years ago and i still believe holds the world record in the total.
bolton took the total record from him a little while back.

No matter what bolton does i'd still consider ed coan the greatest powerlifter ever....he dominated for decades

[Tony Christopher]

I'm going to take the hard line one this one and say:

"NO!"

Or at the very least:

"Impossible to say."

Sadly ... it doesn't have to be that way, but because of power lifting gear, it is.

Is a 3000 pound total extremely impressive? Absolutely.

Is Andy Bolton a great powerlifter, one of the best of all time. Absolutely.

Is he > THE < best? Who knows?

Is a 3000 pound total in modern gear better than Kaz's 2425 in belt, knee and elbow wraps (and possibly a very early super suit, I hear conflicting reports about that)? Who knows? Or Reinhoudt's 2410 in just belt and wraps?

Or anything Coan did in the primitive equipment available to them?

No way of knowing.

If Andy takes off the gear, and puts up 2450 raw, I'm prepared to call him the greatest ever. Otherwise, no way of knowing.

[Ian Duggan]

And then if he'd done the record raw, people would say "well he's good, but what could he do equipped?"

Powerlifting is a game of numbers. The question isn't is he the strongest, or most gifted or whatever. The question is "is he the best powerlifter."

The only way of messuring powerlifting is by numbers, and if you're talking about numbers then Bolton is the best of all time. World Records in squat, deadlift and total, and probably the only guy who's going to be anywhere near 3000lbs for quite some time.

[Dan Montague]

Powerlifting is a bit more than just numbers.

One also has to consider that the powerlifting of today is not like the powerlifting of yesterday, and probably (definitely) will change as time goes on.

The best powerlifter "ever" ignores context, which is a mistake.

It's impossible to name the greatest powerlifter ever, as it is impossible to name the greatest athlete in many sports (name, as in reach a consensus).

[Tony Christopher]

Actually Ian, I disagree with you.

Raw numbers are timeless, because they represent the maximum a PERSON can lift using the power of their own body.

Equipped numbers are not, because gear gets better and better every year.

If Andy were to put up, say, 2500 raw today, he will be able to lay claim to being "the strongest powerlifter ever". 50 years from now, if gear has become so good that it's doubling people's raw bench and squat (which, I suspect it will) and people are hitting 1500 bench, 1800 squat, 1200 deadlift = 4500 total in gear, NO ONE will remember Andy Bolton's 3000 equipped total (assuming he gets it).

But they would remember his 2500 raw total, especially if none of the powerlifting stars of 2057 can match it.

Kaz is the perfect example of that, no one disputes that he was one of the (if not THE) strongest powerlifters in history. Same with Ed Coan. Yet Kaz never totaled more than 2425 (not sure what Ed's highest unequipped total was).

50 years from now people will still be talking about the legendary strength of Ed Coan and Bill Kazmaier.

But the guys putting up 2500 and 2600 in multi ply gear today ... 50 years from now, no one will know their names.


And then if he'd done the record raw, people would say "well he's good, but what could he do equipped?"

Powerlifting is a game of numbers. The question isn't is he the strongest, or most gifted or whatever. The question is "is he the best powerlifter."

The only way of messuring powerlifting is by numbers, and if you're talking about numbers then Bolton is the best of all time. World Records in squat, deadlift and total, and probably the only guy who's going to be anywhere near 3000lbs for quite some time.

[michael martin]

difficult one to say really, nice vid of him from the other day here 770lb for 5 easy reps.(he says he only does speed work leading upto his comp)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DzPkRHZDDdA

[Billy Wolt]

difficult one to say really, nice vid of him from the other day here 770lb for 5 easy reps.(he says he only does speed work leading upto his comp)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DzPkRHZDDdA


LOL 770 for an easy 5...

man that's ridiculous.

[Ian Duggan]

If Andy were to put up, say, 2500 raw today, he will be able to lay claim to being "the strongest powerlifter ever".
I dunno... is the current 100m WR holder Asafa Powell the fastest man ever? Yeah, he is. Is he the best sprinter ever? Maybe not. Who knows what Jesse Owens or Jim Hines would run today using modern equipment / training methods / funding (and therefore the ability to dedicate more time to training etc.).

But we've got to go with what we've got, which is numbers. Bolton has the best total, deadlift and squat ever recorded. So he's the best powerlifter ever. Not saying he's the strongest guy, not saying if everything was raw he'd be the best in the world still (although the deadlift suit help is far less than the other lifts, and I think I'm right in saying that Bolton only used a singlet for all his deadlidts except his last two WR), but as things are reorded and measured he's the best powerlifter ever, because his numbers are highest.

Why make things subjective when there's an objective way of measuring things?

Although that's the trouble with strength sports. With no single body, you have no single set of rules to measure by. Differnt governing bodies, different rules, different judges, no consistent equipment standards (in strongman)...

[Troy Zama]

no ed coan? the guy who would win meets with his openers , regardless of weight class ??!!! :IMHO:

[Mac Smith]

I dunno... is the current 100m WR holder Asafa Powell the fastest man ever? Yeah, he is. Is he the best sprinter ever? Maybe not. Who knows what Jesse Owens or Jim Hines would run today using modern equipment / training methods / funding (and therefore the ability to dedicate more time to training etc.).But we've got to go with what we've got, which is numbers. Bolton has the best total, deadlift and squat ever recorded. So he's the best powerlifter ever. Not saying he's the strongest guy, not saying if everything was raw he'd be the best in the world still (although the deadlift suit help is far less than the other lifts, and I think I'm right in saying that Bolton only used a singlet for all his deadlidts except his last two WR), but as things are reorded and measured he's the best powerlifter ever, because his numbers are highest.

Why make things subjective when there's an objective way of measuring things?

Although that's the trouble with strength sports. With no single body, you have no single set of rules to measure by. Differnt governing bodies, different rules, different judges, no consistent equipment standards (in strongman)...


Good point, but you can't compare shoes and spandex running suits to powerlifting gear. Plus changing your shoes doesn't change your training methods. Guys who use excessive gear train differently than those who don't. BTW, Ben Johnson was the greatest 100m runner of all time! LOL!!!! ;)

[DaneGarreau]

In the world of advanced gear a great powerlifter must be judged based upon his dominance of the sport. Because like guys said, 50 years from now everyone will be hitting 1000 squats with their super duper squat suits; but the guys that dominated and won championships are the ones that will be remembered(of course then there is the issue of all the federations and all that crap).

[Ian Duggan]

BTW, Ben Johnson was the greatest 100m runner of all time! LOL!!!! ;)
Yeah, as I was making that point, that did cross my mind...

:D

[JEFF VANCO]

I've said it once and I"ll say it again - put a suit on and let's see what you can do.


This is for the gear haters.

You can't put an Inzer Leviathan on and squat 1000lbs - if you think this - you're probably weak yourself. Take a look at Donnie Thompson at NERB - look at his 805lb raw squat. Contest gear is 4-5 weeks out from a contest. Double ply, single ply - whatever ply - you are not going to be a 400lb squatter - or even a 600lb squatter, put a canvas on and dunk a grand - what absolute nonsense.

I don't give respect to those mile high - bs squats - but Andy's lifts are legit. He hits depth - just like Gary Frank and Mike Ruggeria do. And by the way - until you go and watch these guys train and or compete - shut your mouth. I have seen it in person - they will walk all over you.

Go do it.

In my opinion - Andy is the best.

[Ryan Brown]

I've said it once and I"ll say it again - put a suit on and let's see what you can do.


This is for the gear haters.

You can't put an Inzer Leviathan on and squat 1000lbs - if you think this - you're probably weak yourself. Take a look at Donnie Thompson at NERB - look at his 805lb raw squat. Contest gear is 4-5 weeks out from a contest. Double ply, single ply - whatever ply - you are not going to be a 400lb squatter - or even a 600lb squatter, put a canvas on and dunk a grand - what absolute nonsense.

I don't give respect to those mile high - bs squats - but Andy's lifts are legit. He hits depth - just like Gary Frank and Mike Ruggeria do. And by the way - until you go and watch these guys train and or compete - shut your mouth. I have seen it in person - they will walk all over you.

Go do it.

In my opinion - Andy is the best.

Jeff, I'm not a gear hater, but your post seems to imply that it doesn't do wonders for one's lifts. It does. For instance on bench I have hit over 500 lbs with a shirt. This was at a time when I could likley only hit about 340 raw. It is what it is. And I am by no means a bench specialist; I've only used a shirt a few times in a contest.

I actually thought the NERB contest really showed how much some of these guy rely on the gear. I was fairly disappointed in the results from that contest in terms of numbers. It really showed some issues; particularly in the squat.

Honestly I think it may be possible to hit a 1000 squat an not have the ability to squat more than 600 raw. Not likely, but possible if your weakness is in the hole. I hit 905 with some room to spare in a poly suit. My squat is strong, but no where near that number raw.

As for the debate at hand, I think that it is difficult to say. I tend to agree with Dane's post; the only real way to judge people's performances over time is to judge them by how they competed against the best of their day.

[rjpe99]

I've said it once and I"ll say it again - put a suit on and let's see what you can do.


This is for the gear haters.

You can't put an Inzer Leviathan on and squat 1000lbs - if you think this - you're probably weak yourself. Take a look at Donnie Thompson at NERB - look at his 805lb raw squat. Contest gear is 4-5 weeks out from a contest. Double ply, single ply - whatever ply - you are not going to be a 400lb squatter - or even a 600lb squatter, put a canvas on and dunk a grand - what absolute nonsense.

I don't give respect to those mile high - bs squats - but Andy's lifts are legit. He hits depth - just like Gary Frank and Mike Ruggeria do. And by the way - until you go and watch these guys train and or compete - shut your mouth. I have seen it in person - they will walk all over you.

Go do it.

In my opinion - Andy is the best.

I like the saying "take the suit off and lets see what you can do ;)

I do think Bolton is an amazing atlete and quite possibly the best powerlifter ever but don't tell people to shut up because they haven't seen these guys train. I haven't seen these guys train but I am entitled to think what ever I want to. I think gear will be the down fall of the sport.

[Ryan Brown]

I think gear will be the down fall of the sport.

IMO it already has been. Precisely why I stopped doing powerlifting. It got to where almost anyone could hit big numbers so I moved to strongman. It is much more difficult to get assistance from gear in strongman.

I do think Andy is great though; primarily because of his deadlift, which is for the most part a raw lift. I've yet to see a deadlift suit provide a substantial amount of help--at least not on a scale with the squat and bench.

[Dan Montague]

Gear does benefit the lifter, of course, but the better a lifter is in their gear, the greater the disparity between their geared numbers and their raw numbers (strength curve). Of course the top tier lifters will rely on the gear -that's the sport (in their chosen federations, and thus, their training reflects it).

Maximizing performance in the geared squat, bench press and deadlift is very, very difficult, especially if you want to be competitive in the sport. For every lifter that gets into gear and does well there are lifters who put on gear and do not.

However, that is a debate that will reach no consensus, and is probably better left out of this particular discussion, being that it will (probably) only result in tension.

In any case, gear is here to stay, and, with the numerous federations, there is a choice for everyone no matter what their preferences are. The only problems arise when one tries to compare various powerlifters who are not in the same federations.

As far as Bolton goes, I feel it deserves repeating; he has the best numbers, under the rules, regulations and judging in the WPO. In this case, however, the title of "best powerlifter ever" cannot be considered an objective decision. Context, as previously mentioned, is the underlying factor.

[JEFF VANCO]

This isn't a powerlifting forum - so I don't expect to have a whole lot of support - nor do I give two POOPIES. I"m entitled to say whatever I want to as well - don't like it? I don't care.

The strength is in a person's pull - if they squat 1200lb with gear and pull 800 and up - they're strong.

Now on the other hand - when you squat 1200 high and can only pull 6 - that's not powerlifting to me.



Anyone know Shawn O'Halloran? He's a friend of mine - trains in Belle River Ontario - 600lb bench press at 275lb in his 40's RAW.

It's on Ironscene and youtube - so go check it out.

He also happens to be the best IPF Master bencher in the world - 705lb at 275.
Wow!!!! 100lb carryover - big deal for equipment - in the strictest powerlifting organization in the world.

He has a world record in the IPF - but had to have a 600lb raw bench first guys.

You have to be strong to use gear AND THIS IS MY POINT.
Think about it anyway - raw meets are stupid - dangerous - and shorten your career. Ask Kirk Karwoski about his AAU and the torn quad - if it was worth it.

In the words of my bro on this forum "I AM DONE".

[Billy Wolt]

how come when there is even a mention of gear, the pro-gear guys come out and say "lets see you do it...shut the f up".

In trying to say who is the best powerlifter ever, gear will be discussed because the technology 20+ years ago was belts and wraps, while today, guys get several hundred pounds out of their suits.

do they train hard, sure they do..that's not the topic.

[rjpe99]

What can I say Billy - I'm an aggressive - no excuses.

I thought you were done?????

There is a big difference in stating your opinion and telling everyone to shut up. Thanks for bringing some class to the thread.

It is possible to disagree with someone without telling them to shut up if they haven't seen a world class powerlifter training in person.........

[Keenan Hollingsworth]

This isn't a powerlifting forum - so I don't expect to have a whole lot of support - nor do I give two shits. I"m entitled to say whatever I want to as well - don't like it? I don't care.

The strength is in a person's pull - if they squat 1200lb with gear and pull 800 and up - they're strong.

Now on the other hand - when you squat 1200 high and can only pull 6 - that's not powerlifting to me.



Anyone know Shawn O'Halloran? He's a friend of mine - trains in Belle River Ontario - 600lb bench press at 275lb in his 40's RAW.

It's on Ironscene and youtube - so go check it out.

He also happens to be the best IPF Master bencher in the world - 705lb at 275.
Wow!!!! 100lb carryover - big deal for equipment - in the strictest powerlifting organization in the world.

He has a world record in the IPF - but had to have a 600lb raw bench first guys.

You have to be strong to use gear AND THIS IS MY POINT.
Think about it anyway - raw meets are stupid - dangerous - and shorten your career. Ask Kirk Karwoski about his AAU and the torn quad - if it was worth it.

In the words of my bro on this forum "I AM DONE".

I've met O'Halloran a couple times (St.Thomas meet I competed at, Belle River meet he competed at, I watched). That man is THICK. Great guy too, took the time to help out on my bench.

At the Belle River meet, his shoulder was hurting, and he didn't want to push it, so he took a token 440 raw :confused:

[Mac Smith]

I've said it once and I"ll say it again - put a suit on and let's see what you can do.


This is for the gear haters.

You can't put an Inzer Leviathan on and squat 1000lbs - if you think this - you're probably weak yourself. Take a look at Donnie Thompson at NERB - look at his 805lb raw squat. Contest gear is 4-5 weeks out from a contest. Double ply, single ply - whatever ply - you are not going to be a 400lb squatter - or even a 600lb squatter, put a canvas on and dunk a grand - what absolute nonsense.

I don't give respect to those mile high - bs squats - but Andy's lifts are legit. He hits depth - just like Gary Frank and Mike Ruggeria do. And by the way - until you go and watch these guys train and or compete - shut your mouth. I have seen it in person - they will walk all over you.

Go do it.

In my opinion - Andy is the best.

Yes, I'm a gear hater and I've used gear while I did powerlifting. Not only that, my introduction to weight lifting was by Scott Warman, Jim Vironin, Jeff Maddy, Robert Patterson (my godfather), OD Wilson, Steve Goggins, and Rick Trevizo (my highschool classmate and high school football teammate). All these guys used gear so I've seen it so I don't need to shut the f up (said with the upmost respect to you Jeff)! All these guys were record setters and incredibly strong. No one disputes the fact that a lot of the current top ranked powerlifters aren't strong, but there is no denying the fact that the excessive gear has diminished their accomplishments. There is also no denying the fact that excessive gear greatly increases totals and lifts. Andy is great, no denying that, but his accomplishments pale in comparison to the old timers because of the gear. It's a sad fact, but it's true!

[Chris Hickson]

This isn't a powerlifting forum - so I don't expect to have a whole lot of support - nor do I give two POOPIES. I"m entitled to say whatever I want to as well - don't like it? I don't care.

The strength is in a person's pull - if they squat 1200lb with gear and pull 800 and up - they're strong.

Now on the other hand - when you squat 1200 high and can only pull 6 - that's not powerlifting to me.



Anyone know Shawn O'Halloran? He's a friend of mine - trains in Belle River Ontario - 600lb bench press at 275lb in his 40's RAW.

It's on Ironscene and youtube - so go check it out.

He also happens to be the best IPF Master bencher in the world - 705lb at 275.
Wow!!!! 100lb carryover - big deal for equipment - in the strictest powerlifting organization in the world.

He has a world record in the IPF - but had to have a 600lb raw bench first guys.

You have to be strong to use gear AND THIS IS MY POINT.
Think about it anyway - raw meets are stupid - dangerous - and shorten your career. Ask Kirk Karwoski about his AAU and the torn quad - if it was worth it.

In the words of my bro on this forum "I AM DONE".
I can't see how raw meets are bad for you because in gear you are using more weight than your natural body can do. But I'm fairly new to the world of strength so I am not sure

[Ian Duggan]

The general feeling seems to be, certainly about bench shirts and squat suits at least, is that wearing them greatly reduces the risk of torn muscles.

Having said that, Andy Bolton once said that when pulling 900lbs and up if he even tenses his arms muscles slightly they tear because of the load on them. I mean... ouch.

I'm pretty sure Bolton could eventually pull 1000lbs raw if he needed too, but I think we're a LONG way from a 1000lbs squat or bench raw.

I had a feeling this thread would descend into a gear versus raw discussion...

[Kevin Cronin]

Andy is great, no denying that, but his accomplishments pale in comparison to the old timers because of the gear.

I think that's a pretty strongly worded statement Mac; Andy has pulled 900 in nothing but a singlet, I'm pretty sure that wouldn't pale in comparison to anything.

My only contribution to this thread ... since this is probably the 100 millionth time this has come up on the internet ... will be my own experience. I had a metal pro squatter that I bought when I weighed 210ish, and it was tight then. I only got to use it 5 or 6 times before gaining 20 lbs fairly rapidly. The only time that I tried to use my suit at 230 lbs, it was a bitch to get into. I was squatting 515 raw, so I figured, lets try 600, it might not get me to parallel, but we'll see what happens. I unracked it and immediately lost my arch, tightness in my upper back, everything. I started to go down but I couldnt keep proper form. Simply put I WAS NOT STRONG ENOUGH to use the gear, a measly 600 almost folded me up like an accordion. I had to get to teh point where I could have 600 or more pounds comfortably on my back in order to use that suit. I just can't put it any more plainly than that

[Mac Smith]

I think that's a pretty strongly worded statement Mac; Andy has pulled 900 in nothing but a singlet, I'm pretty sure that wouldn't pale in comparison to anything.



Don't misunderstand what I'm saying Kevin. Andy Bolton is strong in any generation and ranks up there with the old time greats. What I am saying is this... HIS ACCOMPLISHMENTS WILL ALWAYS BE LOOKED ON WITH RIDICULE BECAUSE OF THE USE OF GEAR. I'm sure Andy could put up tremendous numbers, Raw. I'm not denying that and neither is anyone else.

[Mike Landrich]

Don't misunderstand what I'm saying Kevin. Andy Bolton is strong in any generation and ranks up there with the old time greats. What I am saying is this... HIS ACCOMPLISHMENTS WILL ALWAYS BE LOOKED ON WITH RIDICULE BECAUSE OF THE USE OF GEAR. I'm sure Andy could put up tremendous numbers, Raw. I'm not denying that and neither is anyone else.

Mac
I agree whole-heartedly. Look at Don Reinhoudt's numbers with just knee wraps and a 4" belt. Could Andy match Don's numbers with the same gear? Probably. But has he? Not to my knowledge.
Mike

[Jared Enderton]

I do not feel the greatest of all time is the one who has the highest numbers. Some of the mid-level professional strongman, well, most of them are putting up strongman numbers(log, farmers, etc..) higher than Kazmaier, Jon Pall, etc...

As time goes on, numbers will go up. With that being said, are you saying the old-time greats can never be considered the greatest because their numbers were lower? What about dominance in the sport? What about how bad they beat their opponents each year?

Sure, there numbers may be the greatest, but I dont feel that ultimately makes them the greatest.

Now, if it were RAW, I have a whole new line of thinking.

With all of this new gear, people of the 90's and even today----compared to people in the 2020s---will be absolutely forgotten. the 1000 equipped squats will be nothing compared to the new 1600 squat---their raw numbers will probably be the same--but with how the equipment is evolving-you never know.


I agree with Mac, Andy Bolton is strong as heck.. but with all of the equipment that puts a damper on his accomplishments imo. Where do they draw the line with the equipment? Is it too late?

Sorry for the rant.

[Michael Kirkland]

Ed Coan.....

[dcarroll]

#1 Ed Coan, and a very close 2nd is Hideki Inaba

[JEFF VANCO]

I thought you were done?????

There is a big difference in stating your opinion and telling everyone to shut up. Thanks for bringing some class to the thread.

It is possible to disagree with someone without telling them to shut up if they haven't seen a world class powerlifter training in person.........

LOL LOL LOL LOL :cool:

[Dallas Hogan]

:FF: :B: :YR: way to upset everyone........JEFF "TWO POOPIES" VANCO !!!! LOLOLOLOL :T:

[JEFF VANCO]

:FF: :B: :YR: way to upset everyone........JEFF "TWO POOPIES" VANCO !!!! LOLOLOLOL :T:

Only my homeboy's get me - you obviously get me - you too Mac (you know I got luv 4 ya!!!!)

[Dallas Hogan]

well I dont have the time or energy to drink any "HATORADE" plus there is too much hate in the world already! :disgust: