Not a Vegitarian!

[Joe Bosnick]

In response to Alicia Silverstone's PETA video:

http://www.townhall.com/video/HamNation/1450_hn092807

[Scott Markowitz]

That was awesome. Much better that Silverstone's. Freakin hippie.

[Brandon Campbell]

lol vegitarians, they crack me up. We only have these nice canines for no reason. ever seen a chimp chase down another monkey and eat it? I sure have! :LOL:

[Mike Martello]

I've said it 100 times
I'LL STOP EATING ANIMALS WHEN THEY STOP MAKING THEM OUTTA MEAT!!!

[Zach Snyder]

someone posted a PRO vegetarian ad on the fridge at work.

The tagline was:

"HELPING TO SAVE ANIMALS AND THE EARTH"

it was so dramatic and stupid that i had to do something about it. So, i drew a dancing hotdog on it:

http://a513.ac-images.myspacecdn.com/images01/44/l_26f66dd7efc6b63b6152a7092259a588.jpg

i just don't see how not eating meat saves the earth?

edit: i have nothing against vegetarians. I just thought the ad was extremely stupid.

[Billy Wolt]

animals eat animals...so what's the problem?

[Lance Foster]

People
Eating
Tasty
Animals

Need I say more?

[Corey DuCharme]

I've said it 100 times
I'LL STOP EATING ANIMALS WHEN THEY STOP MAKING THEM OUTTA MEAT!!!

Umm, unless you strictly eat carnivores, the meat you eat is made out of vegetation. :B:

[Josh Kamins]

I think I'd shrivel up and die without meat...

The saving the earth thing isn't the actual eating of meat, it has to do with how we farm the animals, ruin the land, etc.

[Zach Snyder]

I think I'd shrivel up and die without meat...

The saving the earth thing isn't the actual eating of meat, it has to do with how we farm the animals, ruin the land, etc.

why don't they focus on something like oil drilling. something that doesn't taste good?

[Mike Martello]

Meat on my plate none the less eh?
But I have, just not thta often lol
Umm, unless you strictly eat carnivores, the meat you eat is made out of vegetation. :B:

[Nikhil Rao]

even the original vegetarians understood the importance of animal protein which is why they ate an assload of dairy and eggs. Heck, hinduism (which i'm referring to) had a special exception to the vegetarian rule for the warrior class. Why? you need protein to be healthy and strong lol.

And any freaking scientist or anyone who respects and tries to understand nature can see we were designed to eat large amounts of protein. Animal protein. because our bodies cannot process most plant proteins properly and the ones we can, it's nearly impossible to gather/eat enough of with the limited time we have had since the earliest times for such activities.

www.beyondveg.com

[RyanWilson]

And any freaking scientist or anyone who respects and tries to understand nature can see we were designed to eat large amounts of protein. Animal protein. because our bodies cannot process most plant proteins properly and the ones we can, it's nearly impossible to gather/eat enough of with the limited time we have had since the earliest times for such activities.www.beyondveg.com

I think, though, that a lot of this is considered to be "fact" for vegetable proteins not being adequate in that there simply haven't been enough people to give it an honest shot. Honestly, how many people here have known a lifter who has been vegan or vegetarian who puts in the due time and eats plenty and failed to make progress? I'm guessing I'll see zero hands up because I'm guessing that most everyone here, if not everyone has never met a lifter who didn't eat meat. I believe that the need for animal proteins is considerably overrated - somehow I made better gains after going vegan by far than when I ate assloads of chicken, fish, and consumed 150+ additional grams per day of whey protein shakes. In 5 years I went from 210 lbs. to 280 without even any dairy, starting out originally as a test just to see what happened when I changed my diet over. From all conventional beliefs and expectations, I thought I was going to be dropping weight like mad, but somehow while keeping my training up I only got larger and stronger over the years, all the while gaining some additional benefits along the way (no more constipation [probably more info that most people want to know], faster recover time, got sick a fraction as often, etc.) Even now, I consume less protein but just eat more - sheer quality/volume of food and good training are the two best things out there, good enough that no magical supplement can do the same thing for progress. Besides, there are more recent developments in the supplement industry such as pea protein which is said to be pretty close on par with whey for bioavailability, so there's not much excuse about lack of digestibility in dairy-free options. Add to it that mock meat products made from things like wheat protein have a higher protein concentration than real meat, and it's no problem to stuff in 200, 300, 400g per day with minimal difficulty.

I've considered having my business try to put up a challenge to someone who is an experienced lifter that's never considered going vegan or vegetarian to give it a shot for a few months to show that as long as you keep up with what's most important, I don't believe that it'll hinder progress. May work, may not work, everyone's different, but after my own experience, I'm pretty convinced that giving up meat and dairy doesn't mean getting smaller or weaker.

Not trying to be preachy or anything, just saying that there's more than one way to do it - I didn't believe it myself, but my experience showed me otherwise.

[Matthew White]

Editing my first post to not get banned, hahaha. Ahem,

COMPLETE AMINO CHAINS

PARTIAL AMINO CHAINS


(SOY..................THAT'S ONE TYPE............ONLY ONE, UNO, SINGLE, A NOTCH, THAT'S IT)
VEGGIE PEOPLE.......THE DRAMA AND EXCUSES I HEAR ARE EQUAL TO THAT OF GAY PEOPLE MAKING EXCUSES WHY THEY ARE GAY RATHER THAN ACCEPTING THEY HAVE SOMETHING DIFFERENT FROM STRAIGHT PEOPLE AND MAKING EXCUSES RATHER THAN JUST ACCEPTING THE DIFFERENCE.

[Corey DuCharme]

I think, though, that a lot of this is considered to be "fact" for vegetable proteins not being adequate in that there simply haven't been enough people to give it an honest shot. Honestly, how many people here have known a lifter who has been vegan or vegetarian who puts in the due time and eats plenty and failed to make progress? I'm guessing I'll see zero hands up because I'm guessing that most everyone here, if not everyone has never met a lifter who didn't eat meat. I believe that the need for animal proteins is considerably overrated - somehow I made better gains after going vegan by far than when I ate assloads of chicken, fish, and consumed 150+ additional grams per day of whey protein shakes. In 5 years I went from 210 lbs. to 280 without even any dairy, starting out originally as a test just to see what happened when I changed my diet over. From all conventional beliefs and expectations, I thought I was going to be dropping weight like mad, but somehow while keeping my training up I only got larger and stronger over the years, all the while gaining some additional benefits along the way (no more constipation [probably more info that most people want to know], faster recover time, got sick a fraction as often, etc.) Even now, I consume less protein but just eat more - sheer quality/volume of food and good training are the two best things out there, good enough that no magical supplement can do the same thing for progress. Besides, there are more recent developments in the supplement industry such as pea protein which is said to be pretty close on par with whey for bioavailability, so there's not much excuse about lack of digestibility in dairy-free options. Add to it that mock meat products made from things like wheat protein have a higher protein concentration than real meat, and it's no problem to stuff in 200, 300, 400g per day with minimal difficulty.

I've considered having my business try to put up a challenge to someone who is an experienced lifter that's never considered going vegan or vegetarian to give it a shot for a few months to show that as long as you keep up with what's most important, I don't believe that it'll hinder progress. May work, may not work, everyone's different, but after my own experience, I'm pretty convinced that giving up meat and dairy doesn't mean getting smaller or weaker.

Not trying to be preachy or anything, just saying that there's more than one way to do it - I didn't believe it myself, but my experience showed me otherwise.


So what does a typical day of eating look like for you?

Out of sheer laziness and cheapness, I have been a partial lacto-ovo vegetarian for some time. It's cheaper and easier to prepare and consume meals which don't include meat. I think there is a lot to be disgusted about in the way our food source is treated prior to slaughter. That's why supporting companies like Grassland beef is very important. The only way to get the attention of big business is how you spend your money. They control what's going on in the industry and they don't care how naked and hot you are getting out of a pool.

I love a good rare steak though and I hope I can kill a nice big buck this year to fill the freezer with.

[Matthew White]

So what does a typical day of eating look like for you?

Out of sheer laziness and cheapness, I have been a partial lacto-ovo vegetarian for some time. It's cheaper and easier to prepare and consume meals which don't include meat. I think there is a lot to be disgusted about in the way our food source is treated prior to slaughter. That's why supporting companies like Grassland beef is very important. The only way to get the attention of big business is how you spend your money. They control what's going on in the industry and they don't care how naked and hot you are getting out of a pool.

I love a good rare steak though and I hope I can kill a nice big buck this year to fill the freezer with.

Yeah, seriously, I grew up on a farm myself and for about 5-6 years we had feeder piggies. (I wuvs widdle piggly wigglys) and up until slaughter they were treated very well, large area to roam around in with big fences to keep them safe, piggy houses bi-weekly fresh with straw to keeps them warm, and tons of heavy rocks and tires to root around for fun and exercise. But yeah, there are alot of farmers who treat there animals very well, because face it, if they are happy, then they grow bigger, no bullcrapping, they will be bigger and there will be more financial gain from it. (yes, kindness comes from capitalism) But yeah, I too am rather interested in what your diet is like. My ex fiance was vegetarian forever and she was a fitness competitor in New Zealand, and I finally got her to start eating fish and eggs. (funny how she really improved after that)

[amy kelly]

Editing my first post to not get banned, hahaha. Ahem,

COMPLETE AMINO CHAINS

PARTIAL AMINO CHAINS


(SOY..................THAT'S ONE TYPE............ONLY ONE, UNO, SINGLE, A NOTCH, THAT'S IT)
VEGGIE PEOPLE.......THE DRAMA AND EXCUSES I HEAR ARE EQUAL TO THAT OF GAY PEOPLE MAKING EXCUSES WHY THEY ARE GAY RATHER THAN ACCEPTING THEY HAVE SOMETHING DIFFERENT FROM STRAIGHT PEOPLE AND MAKING EXCUSES RATHER THAN JUST ACCEPTING THE DIFFERENCE.
what? im not going to start on the topics and just ask if you where trying to say that they can survive as vegs because their bodies can assimilate carbs more efficiently allowing this diet compared to someone like me that requires protein with some sourced as animal product making their wanting to convert us all an idea outside of reality?

[Josh Kamins]

Editing my first post to not get banned, hahaha. Ahem,

COMPLETE AMINO CHAINS

PARTIAL AMINO CHAINS


(SOY..................THAT'S ONE TYPE............ONLY ONE, UNO, SINGLE, A NOTCH, THAT'S IT)
VEGGIE PEOPLE.......THE DRAMA AND EXCUSES I HEAR ARE EQUAL TO THAT OF GAY PEOPLE MAKING EXCUSES WHY THEY ARE GAY RATHER THAN ACCEPTING THEY HAVE SOMETHING DIFFERENT FROM STRAIGHT PEOPLE AND MAKING EXCUSES RATHER THAN JUST ACCEPTING THE DIFFERENCE.

Uh, what??

[RyanWilson]

So what does a typical day of eating look like for you?

Out of sheer laziness and cheapness, I have been a partial lacto-ovo vegetarian for some time. It's cheaper and easier to prepare and consume meals which don't include meat. I think there is a lot to be disgusted about in the way our food source is treated prior to slaughter. That's why supporting companies like Grassland beef is very important. The only way to get the attention of big business is how you spend your money. They control what's going on in the industry and they don't care how naked and hot you are getting out of a pool.

I love a good rare steak though and I hope I can kill a nice big buck this year to fill the freezer with.



A typical day's diet might be something like this:

(NOTE - I need an incredibly small amount of food for my size, and over the years I've found that a high protein intake doesn't mean more progress, so I keep it a bit more moderate)

Breakfast - 2 sprouted grain English muffins w/PB (roughly 600 cal. and 25g protein)

Snack 1 - Clif bars or something similar (around 500 cal. and 18g protein)

Lunch - Meat-substitute sandwich and juice (piled high, around 750 cal. and 40g protein)

Snack 2 - Pea protein shake and pre-workout Gatorade (around 300 cal and 25g protein)

Post-lifting dinner - Something like whole-grain pasta and a spinach salad or anything that'll pack me with around 750-900 cal. and roughly 30-50g protein)

Bedtime - Pea protein shake, maybe some peanuts or something to snack on (roughly 400-500 cal. and 20-30g protein)

As you can see, it's not all salad and wheatgrass juice on my diet :D

I can get by eating around 2600-2700 cal./day on off days without losing weight and only need to take in around 3200 or more to gain - I'm inclined to be fat, so I can't gorge often or I get crap weight on myself very quickly, especially once I go over 4000 cal./day. Been working well for quite some time - barring 2 years of back injury recovery, excessive stress and my recent vision illness I'd probably be much better off, but some things are just beyond my control. I think back to slamming Met-Rx shakes constantly, gorging myself on anything that said Myoplex on the package and eating anything that guaranteed me 50+ grams of protein per serving back some years ago, and all it took was that I needed to eat better and train more intelligently to find what was ideal. I had to spend a lot of money and eat a lot of processed junk to find that going a more "natural" route and giving up meat and dairy would be the best thing for me. Again, I'm not saying everyone would get the same results, but I think that the general assumptions in people thinking "If I gave up milk/meat/etc." I'd lose all my strength!" is far from the truth. If you replace one food source with another one that's quality it's extremely unlikely that anyone is going to end up emaciated and weak in a short period of time. But, people envision that if you're vegan or vegetarian that you live off of salad and get something like 10g of protein per day, which is not necessarily true (except for those who generally wish to look emaciated and sickly, which isn't my style). And as far as supplements go, you can get the bulk of what is normally taken in a form that's vegan-friendly as well, so there's little limitation on that. Creatine, BCAAs, etc - plenty of options out there so there's not much excuse for anyone as well who believes that they'd have to give up a supplement regimen to be on such a diet.

I'm still trying to decipher the original post by Matthew White, as it seems to be a bit confusing. I'm definitely not trying to make an excuse for anything (if that is at all what it is about) - rather, I'm trying to break down the excuse that people use for saying why they could never go vegetarian or vegan because it's based on a lot of misinformation and assumptions. If there are veg people out there who make excuses for being skinny, weak, etc. that's BS because they simply don't know how to eat and train right and they use the diet as a cover for their ignorance. I don't buy either side that makes excuses - the proof can be obtained through trial and error, but most people simply don't want to take the chance, but I respect anyone's decision to be veg/eat meat/whatever they choose. I'm not here to preach or convert - if someone wants to ask about the diet for info I'm glad to help, but I won't come out and start with an anti-meat tirade just because it's not the way I do things. I just don't dig misinformation based on lack of truth, so I tend to only chime in on the topic when something rubs me the wrong way and I hear the same old stuff that's not much more than outdated opinions instead of fact. And no, I'm not pointing the finger at anyone in particular, just the old beliefs that I think are about due to be retired, that's all :D

[Corey DuCharme]

A typical day's diet might be something like this:

(NOTE - I need an incredibly small amount of food for my size, and over the years I've found that a high protein intake doesn't mean more progress, so I keep it a bit more moderate)

Breakfast - 2 sprouted grain English muffins w/PB (roughly 600 cal. and 25g protein)

Snack 1 - Clif bars or something similar (around 500 cal. and 18g protein)

Lunch - Meat-substitute sandwich and juice (piled high, around 750 cal. and 40g protein)

Snack 2 - Pea protein shake and pre-workout Gatorade (around 300 cal and 25g protein)

Post-lifting dinner - Something like whole-grain pasta and a spinach salad or anything that'll pack me with around 750-900 cal. and roughly 30-50g protein)

Bedtime - Pea protein shake, maybe some peanuts or something to snack on (roughly 400-500 cal. and 20-30g protein)

As you can see, it's not all salad and wheatgrass juice on my diet :D

I can get by eating around 2600-2700 cal./day on off days without losing weight and only need to take in around 3200 or more to gain - I'm inclined to be fat, so I can't gorge often or I get crap weight on myself very quickly, especially once I go over 4000 cal./day. Been working well for quite some time - barring 2 years of back injury recovery, excessive stress and my recent vision illness I'd probably be much better off, but some things are just beyond my control. I think back to slamming Met-Rx shakes constantly, gorging myself on anything that said Myoplex on the package and eating anything that guaranteed me 50+ grams of protein per serving back some years ago, and all it took was that I needed to eat better and train more intelligently to find what was ideal. I had to spend a lot of money and eat a lot of processed junk to find that going a more "natural" route and giving up meat and dairy would be the best thing for me. Again, I'm not saying everyone would get the same results, but I think that the general assumptions in people thinking "If I gave up milk/meat/etc." I'd lose all my strength!" is far from the truth. If you replace one food source with another one that's quality it's extremely unlikely that anyone is going to end up emaciated and weak in a short period of time. But, people envision that if you're vegan or vegetarian that you live off of salad and get something like 10g of protein per day, which is not necessarily true (except for those who generally wish to look emaciated and sickly, which isn't my style). And as far as supplements go, you can get the bulk of what is normally taken in a form that's vegan-friendly as well, so there's little limitation on that. Creatine, BCAAs, etc - plenty of options out there so there's not much excuse for anyone as well who believes that they'd have to give up a supplement regimen to be on such a diet.

I'm still trying to decipher the original post by Matthew White, as it seems to be a bit confusing. I'm definitely not trying to make an excuse for anything (if that is at all what it is about) - rather, I'm trying to break down the excuse that people use for saying why they could never go vegetarian or vegan because it's based on a lot of misinformation and assumptions. If there are veg people out there who make excuses for being skinny, weak, etc. that's BS because they simply don't know how to eat and train right and they use the diet as a cover for their ignorance. I don't buy either side that makes excuses - the proof can be obtained through trial and error, but most people simply don't want to take the chance, but I respect anyone's decision to be veg/eat meat/whatever they choose. I'm not here to preach or convert - if someone wants to ask about the diet for info I'm glad to help, but I won't come out and start with an anti-meat tirade just because it's not the way I do things. I just don't dig misinformation based on lack of truth, so I tend to only chime in on the topic when something rubs me the wrong way and I hear the same old stuff that's not much more than outdated opinions instead of fact. And no, I'm not pointing the finger at anyone in particular, just the old beliefs that I think are about due to be retired, that's all :D


Thank you for the insight. Your diet looks really well thought out and complete. Looks like I could totally live on that, actually I eat very similar, only most meals are accompanied with a glass of milk because I love it and have no lactose intolerance issues. (unless I pass the half gallon mark in one sitting, but even that is only temporary discomfort)

I have not heard of pea protein before, very interesting. So do you pop some aminos with meals to fill in any essentials that may be missing?

[RyanWilson]

Thank you for the insight. Your diet looks really well thought out and complete. Looks like I could totally live on that, actually I eat very similar, only most meals are accompanied with a glass of milk because I love it and have no lactose intolerance issues. (unless I pass the half gallon mark in one sitting, but even that is only temporary discomfort)

I have not heard of pea protein before, very interesting. So do you pop some aminos with meals to fill in any essentials that may be missing?


Corey,

No problem with the info - I'm always happy to explain more about my diet when anyone is interested.

For the pea protein, it's not the greatest tasting protein ever, but it gets the job done (I compare the texture to the sludginess of when I used to take Met-Rx shakes back in the day - it's either goopy or it turns to colored water). However, it's quite tolerable, and it's got a pretty solid amino acid profile as follows:

Amino Acid Profile Per Serving:
Alanine: 1260mg
Arginine: 1086mg
Aspartic Acid: 3110mg
Cystine: 487mg
Glutamic Acid: 3435mg
Glycine: 1160mg
Histidine: 630mg
Isoleucine: 1400mg
Leucine: 2110mg
Lysine: 1705mg
Methionine: 325mg
Phenylalanine: 1530mg
Proline: 1320mg
Serine: 1200mg
Threonine: 1085mg
Tryptophan (naturally occurring): 265mg
Valine: 1320mg

With taking that, I never really bother much with any other amino supplements since it's always taken care of me well enough. The only other thing I toss in occasionally is some Optimum nutrition creatine/glutamine/taurine for a few months here and there and that's about it. I try to keep things simple since every time I try to load up with other supps I never, ever find it makes a real difference. I wish that something would prove effective for me, but I suppose I'm fine with not having to take anything more or spend any extra $$$ on extra supplements.

Tell you what - if you PM me your address, I'll get a container of pea protein sent over to you this week. I get a free container from the manufacturer by request on our orders, so I can always pad one on to my next shipment. Sound good? :D

[Corey DuCharme]

Thanks Ryan!!!! Check your PMs.

[Nikhil Rao]

Ryan, I go through long periods of LOVism. I have made some of my best gains on that diet. That's what I was eating when I went from 185 to 200 and added 100lbs to my bench in a matter of months. I've mentioned it on this forum several times. As it is I only eat chicken and the occasional slice of bacon two or three meals in a week.

I'm a huge fan of vegetarianism; you should see the variety of fresh fruit and veg in my diet when I can be bothered to shop. I think that a primarily veg diet is very healthy, but that for the most part it needs to be leavened with a little animal protein. Or a lot if you're a cheesehead like me. I'd personally rather do dairy and eggs than refined vegan products. And though refined multi-source vegan products do get close to the bioavailability, completeness, and energetic qualities of animal protein sources, they aren't perfect. And again, personally, I feel that those vegan products are more unnatural than just doing dairy and eggs.

I have seen successful vegan lifters and non-distance athletes. But they are very few and far between. You've put a considerable amount of research into your diet and not just hopped on the crappy soy bandwagon (don't get me started). You do take a pea protein supplement and use a meat substitute, which is what I was referring to with the whole didn't have time to process and eat enough. Modern day tech lets you do that with processed, refined and concentrated plant protein sources. In essence the tech replaces the efficiency we have at using animal protein.

You're also a bit of a freak of nature, which you'd have to admit. You yourself admit you don't need too much protein and you get a remarkably low caloric intake for your size and activity level. I don't need much protein either, so I understand where you're coming from. But I also know most guys my size (which ain't that big) couldn't get away with eating as little protein as I do. For that matter, I also thrive on a much higher carb/fat ratio than most of you do...

[KevinRoss]

I never understood why meat eaters get so uptight about people being vegetarians. Yeah, the militants ones are annoying. But the vast majority of vegetarians are just eating what they want to eat and aren't shoving it in everyone's face or trying to force meat eaters to change. It'd be like condemning anyone Christian because you don't agree with the extreme evangelical movement.

BTW, up until a year ago I didn't eat any red meat, chicken, etc. Mainly seafood, eggs, dairy, nuts, beans, etc for protein sources. I have eaten fake meats before, but I'm pretty sure those are incredibly unhealthy with all the bizarre additives. Plus, they taste like ass.

Once I got into competitive eating, I did start eating meat again. However, I still only do it for contests. So it isn't a frequent thing for me.

I don't feel like we do need lots of red meat. I think it's just a personal choice and one can be healthy and get stronger either way.

[RyanWilson]

Ryan, I go through long periods of LOVism. I have made some of my best gains on that diet. That's what I was eating when I went from 185 to 200 and added 100lbs to my bench in a matter of months. I've mentioned it on this forum several times. As it is I only eat chicken and the occasional slice of bacon two or three meals in a week.

I'm a huge fan of vegetarianism; you should see the variety of fresh fruit and veg in my diet when I can be bothered to shop. I think that a primarily veg diet is very healthy, but that for the most part it needs to be leavened with a little animal protein. Or a lot if you're a cheesehead like me. I'd personally rather do dairy and eggs than refined vegan products. And though refined multi-source vegan products do get close to the bioavailability, completeness, and energetic qualities of animal protein sources, they aren't perfect. And again, personally, I feel that those vegan products are more unnatural than just doing dairy and eggs.

I have seen successful vegan lifters and non-distance athletes. But they are very few and far between. You've put a considerable amount of research into your diet and not just hopped on the crappy soy bandwagon (don't get me started). You do take a pea protein supplement and use a meat substitute, which is what I was referring to with the whole didn't have time to process and eat enough. Modern day tech lets you do that with processed, refined and concentrated plant protein sources. In essence the tech replaces the efficiency we have at using animal protein.

You're also a bit of a freak of nature, which you'd have to admit. You yourself admit you don't need too much protein and you get a remarkably low caloric intake for your size and activity level. I don't need much protein either, so I understand where you're coming from. But I also know most guys my size (which ain't that big) couldn't get away with eating as little protein as I do. For that matter, I also thrive on a much higher carb/fat ratio than most of you do...

Glad to hear more responses on this one!

I do understand the desire to avoid refined and heavily processed vegan/vegetarian products - I agree, they're not the healthiest option out there, and these days I keep them to a minimum (I spent my first 4 years of being vegan living off that stuff and I'm working to eliminate almost all of it from my diet.) Of course, eating non-organic beef, chicken, etc. is pretty nasty considering what gets put into it prior to processing with antibiotics and what-not, but that's a different story. For the pea protein, I look at it in a similar fashion as any other MRP - it's taken in for the additional protein, and while it isn't completely natural, it's not any worse for the wear than taking a pure whey supplement or anything of that nature. Just as well, while that's my poison of choice, I do go with better alternatives on occasion such as organic hemp and brown rice proteins, both of which are usually subjected to less processing and don't have any added flavors or anything else of that sort. It's not cheap to eat naturally no matter what turn you take diet-wise, but again, I think it's basically that if you don't have either sponsor's products coming for free or don't have a limitless food budget, we all eat too much processed junk as lifters because that's just the way things go. But, it's one of those things where I could either eat more solid natural food or supplement a bit on the side, and since my appetite doesn't hold up well for too many large meals, that's the easiest way to go since I can easily undereat over the course of the day.

I do believe that a main reason there aren't more successful vegan and vegetarian athletes is simply the numbers game - it's estimated that only around 4% of the population is vegetarian, and when you start talking vegan, you can shave that to a fraction of a percent. Much like when it has been discussed over why other countries tend to turn out so many great olympic lifters, it's all in the numbers in that they have a different way of breeding elite athletes on a much greater scale due to the way that people are started in training and how talent is scouted. If you have 1000 people who lift, you may turn out 10 champions. However, if you only have a dozen people, then you know how drastically the odds drop. Same with dietary choices and athletic success - I mean, there are a few message boards out there for meat-free athletes, but as it goes, you see the same few dozen people posting across them, because there just aren't that many people giving it a shot (or, at least not that many who do who are out there discussing their experiences.) I think that numbers is a large part of that, but also, there is a great element of psychology as well. A combination of old beliefs likely kept a lot of people who have potential to steer clear of such diets because they believed it was inevitable that they'd suffer a decline in performance, and also, for a long time when veganism (and to some extent, vegetariansm) had a more militant stance that people shunned lifting because being big and strong was sort of a perceived antithesis to what people envisioned the ethical aspect of the diet to be geared toward. I compare it to how I perceived lifting when I was in school - I thought it was stupid because that's what jocks did, and I was just some skate punk and didn't want to be associated with what my "adversaries" did. Again, though, that's a whole different topic of discussion :D

I do admit, I'm not quite the norm when it comes to what I need for my diet. However, I don't think that it'd be much harder to add another 100g/day of protein to my diet if I'd need to, either through whole foods or supplements, making it easy to get 250-300g/day or more. Like I said, I never saw any noticeable difference between taking in 150-200g/day and 300g/day when it came to gains or recovery, so eating that much more was for me sort of an unnecessary thing. A lot of people swear by a need for a high protein intake, but I'm also assuming that these people aren't eating only organic meat, eggs and dairy, so at that, many of them are still taking in lots of hormone and antibiotic-laden foods. But, that gets too much back to the discussion over what's healthiest and most "natural", and again, that's a whole topic in and of itself. Also, I have those bad "fat" genes where a little goes a long way, and I can put on fat extremely easily, which is a consideration in my amount of food taken in each day. However, I don't think that has much bearing on the true effect of diet on performance other than the fact that I can save a lot on food costs vs. the guy who needs 8000 cal./day. :D Again, I think if more people gave it a try and didn't expect the worst (and, researched how to change their diet correctly) we'd find a lot more people who adapted well and saw quality results along the way, but without more people to give such a thing a try, both sides of opinion can only speculate on whether people like myself are abnormal or whether it's simply back to the numbers game of not enough people trying it so that we don't see more success stories.

Anyway, it's fun to discuss this because usually my dietary choices just get slammed on most boards without anyone being rational enough to be able to debate without it becoming a shouting match over who can rant the best. Like I said, I'm not here to push my choices on anyone else, but I do enjoy talking about it in hopes that perhaps it can dispel a few old theories on the topic.

[Joshua Davis]

Nice sig...
Here labelled as lunatic,
Sequestered and content,
There ignored and defeated
By the government,
Theres an oriented public whos magnetic
Force does pull,
But away from the potential of the individual,
against the grain


I think everyone benefits from increasing vegetable intake, vegans and healthy lacto/fish/ovos especially when a variety of veggies are eating. The reason why so many "protest vegans" are unhealthy is because these are people choosing their food as a protest against the meat industry, and are not selecting optimal nutrition for their body.

I also am starting to feel that in cases of specific nutritional needs (extreme weightloss cases or those recovering from medical procedures), supplemental protein isn't needed on a regular omnivorous diet (if adequate protein is eaten during mealtimes). I have recently changed my diet rather sharply to eliminate supplemental protein and focus on whole foods - and within a few weeks my GI health has been 100% improved... and that has made me stronger (just try to regularly squat heavy with chronic intestinal problems!). I bet there are many days where I get less than 150gm of protein in a day. I have yet to shrivel up and die, my lifts are going up despite a possible fractured wrist... I'd say I'm doing ok on it.

[RyanWilson]

Yeah, I thought that the Bad Religion quote pretty well sums up my way of approaching things. The Clutch one I'd previously used probably gave someone the impression that I was juiced, so I figured it was time for a change :D

The other point that I didn't mention earlier in regards to high protein intake is this (which I've seen discussed on other boards in the past) -

What about prison inmates that are massive guys and/or are super-strong who survive on their standard daily meals and don't have access to supplements and constant feeding beyond their normal feedings? Not that I'm an expert on inmates, but I've seen enough documentaries to notice an abundance of jacked guys walking the yard who didn't seem to get scrawny the moment they were put on lockdown, so I think again that many people have the ability to still do very well without needing a massive intake per day. Don't get me wrong - this isn't an attack on high-protein diets or those who do them, just another point in saying that while many people think that they'll wither away by dropping from 400g/day to 200g/day, I think many people would adapt far better than they'd anticipate because they've convinced themselves that massive intake is the only way to be big.

Now I'm getting way off course - I'll stick to discussing vegetarian/vegan diet stuff from here on out and get off the protein issue :D

[Nikhil Rao]

Glad to hear more responses on this one!


Like I said, I'm practically a hippy. I still don't buy veganism, and don't think I ever will. There's a lot of reasons for that ranging from my training as a bioanthropologist and studies into evolutionary physiology, to quite honestly my cultural grounding. I'm extremely wedded to LOV-ism even if I do cheat a bit. Don't think I ever won't be.

I think my biggest complaint with the whole thing is that 99% of the pro-vegan info out there is totally bogus. (soy bandwagon, etc). It amazed me when I read that doctors who bought into it were actually stunned when real milk turned out to be preferrable to soy. Which really upset me. But doctors are stupid I should've expected it.

And the vegan/vegetarian myth about the harmful effects of protein blah blah blah. keep in mind I have a really low protein intake target. ONly 60-80gms but even then these guys are like 'OMG!!!!! your kidneys are going to die!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!'

I dunno, its just like some of the more 'mainstream' or at least popular voices of veganism and vegetarianism are just plain retarded. make everyone with that kind of mindset look stupid.

And the other thing of course is the various holes our diets leave in nutrition. Just 6gms of creatine a day had a REMARKABLE effect on my training. Likely because there's very little creatine found in the foods I normally eat. Even when I do eat chicken, it's not exactly the greatest source of the stuff. I NEVER would've considered it a nutritional lack before, but now I'm forced to admit it is.

The various vitamins, iron, etc. just read the literature on children of vegans raised vegans...vegetarians too. It's pretty shocking and sad.

Again, not saying that's true for you because you've clearly thought through it very, very well. But there's no denying that when you remove animal products from your diet, you have to be very conscientious in your eating plans.

BTW, I eat almost all organic for my real meals.

[RyanWilson]

I still don't buy veganism, and don't think I ever will. There's a lot of reasons for that ranging from my training as a bioanthropologist and studies into evolutionary physiology, to quite honestly my cultural grounding. I'm extremely wedded to LOV-ism even if I do cheat a bit. Don't think I ever won't be.

I've always said, not everyone is cut out to go vegan - many people who are vegan have this wishful thinking that everyone should and must do it, but hey, to each his own. I'm split on my reasoning, primarily for ethical reasons, partially for health (I think it's wholly irresponsible when vegans say that you can't be healthy and eat omnivorously, since until quite recently, that's just how it has always been). I made the initial change because I felt really, really guilty about saying that I thought cats and dogs were great but it was okay to eat other stuff because it wasn't "cute" and living in my home. I felt really hypocritical about that, gave it a shot to see how I felt after going vegan, figured if I couldn't feel good on it that I'd at least have given it a chance, and I've always managed to fare well since changing over. If I'd have just thought about it from a health stance, I probably would have given up after a while and just ended up finding an excuse to balance out with a better diet - the ethical aspect is what has kept me going.

I think my biggest complaint with the whole thing is that 99% of the pro-vegan info out there is totally bogus. (soy bandwagon, etc). It amazed me when I read that doctors who bought into it were actually stunned when real milk turned out to be preferrable to soy. Which really upset me. But doctors are stupid I should've expected it.

I think that a lot of the pro-vegan info out there is in retaliation to the pro-meat/dairy health claims that are overly touted when they themselves aren't always the most honest. It's difficult to say who is really right and who isn't. It's a big power struggle to see who can shout the loudest - there's a lot of campaigning to counter the meat and dairy lobby's work to promote their products in a light that isn't always the most honest or the most straightforward. I don't agree with everything on the vegan side all the time, but some things have definitely stuck with me through the years. For example, I was diagnosed as allergic to dairy as a child, yet my pediatricians said "just wean him into it", and lo and behold, I was able to tolerate it by age 3 in small amounts. By age 4 I was hooked on dairy products and ate them regularly. Over time, I had plenty of weird health issues and developed some irritating asthmatic conditions around age 12. When I got the dariy out of my diet, a lot of the things that plagued me with my asthma, couging up phlegm after a heavy-dairy eating day and other symptoms were gone. There are a lot of people out there like me that just shouldn't touch the stuff, but we're taught that it's the healthiest way to go, and I do appreciate a counter effort to say that perhaps it isn't the best thing (at least, not for everyone). Again, some people can drink a gallon a day and will never suffer any ill effects, I adapted to dairy and still suffered for over 2 decades until I eliminated it. just like with training, everyone is different, and I don't buy 100% into anything on any side because some people do well on one thing, others may suffer from it, so I find that there needs to be 2 sides to every discussion. I've seen stuff that's PR-heavy false science by the meat and dairy business, and I've seen some pretty questionable stuff on the vegan side as well. I may be vegan, but I don't blindly fall behind every new "fact" that comes out because a lot of that stuff is even heavily debated within the community.


And the vegan/vegetarian myth about the harmful effects of protein blah blah blah. keep in mind I have a really low protein intake target. ONly 60-80gms but even then these guys are like 'OMG!!!!! your kidneys are going to die!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!'.

That whole thing stems from sheer ignorance rather than a set vegan philosophy. It is a common misconception in part due to the vehement anti-meat/dairy attitude, and as these products are high in protein, I think that it just evolved into this idiotic tirade that some vegans felt they had to be the opposite of what they fought against. Every freakin' time I've heard someone else who is vegan say that sort of crap, I simply tell them to show me the evidence and ask why everyone on a high-protein diet isn't on dialysis and it usually shuts them up pretty quickly. Trust me, I think that attitude is lunacy as well, and fortunately I've seen it start to fade more and more over the last half decade as more vegans are getting into athletic endeavors and are realizing that eating 30g of protein per day just isn't going to cut it.

I dunno, its just like some of the more 'mainstream' or at least popular voices of veganism and vegetarianism are just plain retarded. make everyone with that kind of mindset look stupid..

Now, now, let's not be too judgemental here :D But I do agree, people need to stop believing that PETA is the voice of the entire movement - matter of fact, I'd say roughly 50% of the vegans I meet and speak with are pretty anti-PETA because of their tactics and statements. But, they're the one with the most money and the loudest voice, so they get heard the most. It'd be like believing that the president speaks the mind of all Republicans - plenty of them don't really agree with everything he says, but who else has the voice he does? Problem is, there's no single group that speaks the way that all vegans think - most share the same core beliefs, but much like any other movement, each splinter has it's own agenda and it's own way that they think that things would be done best. It's just too bad that $$$ = exposure = what the general public perceives to be the voice of the rest.

And the other thing of course is the various holes our diets leave in nutrition. Just 6gms of creatine a day had a REMARKABLE effect on my training. Likely because there's very little creatine found in the foods I normally eat. Even when I do eat chicken, it's not exactly the greatest source of the stuff. I NEVER would've considered it a nutritional lack before, but now I'm forced to admit it is.

I agree that everyone is most likely lacking in something that could benefit them. The creatine for you is one example (where for me, it really doesn't have any improvement on my performance from my experience), and most likely we're all deficient in some way or other. It's nearly impossible to get a balanced diet each and every day that has exactly what we need, regardless of whether one eats omnivorously, vegetarian, vegan, etc. I take a quality multi-vitamin daily because I know that despite eating pretty well, I can't really be getting as good of a balance as I'd hope for.

The various vitamins, iron, etc. just read the literature on children of vegans raised vegans...vegetarians too. It's pretty shocking and sad.

Unfortunately, a LOT of the info out there that shows "studies" on vegan and vegetarian-raised children is more propaganda than an actual cross-section of the true range. Those horror stories that make the news about the "vegan" parents who give their kids soymilk and salad and they die of starvation? That's not vegan parenting, that's an example of mentally-deficient people trying to raise their kids in the worst way possible (there are plenty of people giving their kids standard foods who end up killing them due to bad dietary practices, but they don't make for as entertaining of news, unfortunately ;) ) I personally have met dozens of couples who have raised their kids vegan since birth, seen their children, and they've all been just as happy and healthy as any other kids. Unfortunately, again, most of what gets disseminated out there is worst case scenario tragedies because they make for excellent anti-vegan propaganda, not that they're a real example of how most vegan parents raise their children. If I'm not mistaken, even the often-quoted Dr. Benjamin Spock, in his later days, changed his stance to say that a vegan or vegetarian diet can actually be a good thing for many children.

Again, not saying that's true for you because you've clearly thought through it very, very well. But there's no denying that when you remove animal products from your diet, you have to be very conscientious in your eating plans.

There's little question to people needing to be very cautious about any radical dietary change - lack of education in diet can be a dangerous thing, and that goes as well for switching to a vegan diet as anything else. Someone who thinks that eating a salad 3x / day is going to take care of them is in for a pretty bad ride, just like the college kid who developed scurvy a few years ago from believing that he could exist purely off of pizza and Doritos. Balance is key, and knowing how to balance is necessary to be healthy in any diet. It's good to say this as a cautionary measure, because I'd hate to see anyone go vegan and think that they didn't need to research it first and find out what's right and what's wrong for their needs. You can be omnivorous and healthy, and you can be omnivorous and sickly - same for being vegan.

BTW, I eat almost all organic for my real meals.

As should just about everyone! :D

[Joshua Davis]

The arguement that you would be a hypocrite because you choose to allow pets to live and livestock to die is only argueable from a very simple perspective. Many animals have been bred to serve humans... the same logic of selective breeding to create a subserviant pet in your home, argueable could be the same logic of selectively breeding cattle to be subserviant to you for milk, meat, and leather.

[RyanWilson]

The arguement that you would be a hypocrite because you choose to allow pets to live and livestock to die is only argueable from a very simple perspective. Many animals have been bred to serve humans... the same logic of selective breeding to create a subserviant pet in your home, argueable could be the same logic of selectively breeding cattle to be subserviant to you for milk, meat, and leather.

Ugh...this is the stuff I hate debating because the ethical side is where people tend to let emotion run wild, so I'm going to keep this part short and not continue a long thread about it (anyone who wants to know more about my opinions on this can PM me about it because this stuff could go on forever otherwise.)

I don't believe that something being "bred to serve humans" makes something a commodity to be exploited for our use simply because we can. I don't believe that animals who would choose to live on their own terms in the wild deserve to be used for our purposes simply because we're able to contain and use them for our needs while ignoring their own best interests. I believe that all creatures have their own right to live the way that nature intended them to, and that it is neither natural nor kind to force something to live simply so that we may use it, kill it, consume it, and breed more in it's place to serve our needs.

As for pets, I'm not big on breeding for the purpose of having pets - the cats I have are shelter rescues, who would eventually be put to death if they were not taken in. I would never willingly purchase an animal from a breeder because I choose not to support creating more animals in a world where we have millions of unwanted cats and dogs as it is. For every purebred animal that someone buys from a breeder, they're costing the life of another who could be adopted from a shelter or rescue organization, and that's not something I choose to support. Not to mention that every animal is different, and purebreds are not always any more friendly/calm/obedient than many mutt breeds out there - it's just like with people, you have to take it on a case-by-case basis.

As you can see, I don't support breeding animals for any purpose of entertainment, consumption, etc., so I no longer feel that there's hypocrisy in my lifestyle. I simply believe that it is unkind to use animals for our own personal gain or enjoyment, no matter how it is done, and I avoid such things as much as possible. Veganism is not perfect, and yes, there are animal-derived ingredients in everyday use things such as plastics, rubber, and likely in some components of the computer I'm on right now. The main objective is to reduce suffering of animals to the best degree possible - not to achieve perfection, which cannot be obtained. Again, the ethical discussion is where we all tend to get driven by emotion and comfort of existing lifestyles being an impact on what is said, so before things get way out of hand (as they usually do when these discussions come up), I again ask that if anyone wants to continue to debate or wishes for me to reply to anything on the ethical side that you PM me regarding it, because this is usually the point where "the vegan" tends to get ganged up on, and I'd rather do my "battling" in private, thank you very much :D